NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

From TT

JR - did you give feedback on this
IB - I don't recall that I gave feedback on this policy
JR - what kind of feedback did they get
IB - I would have to read it all over to be sure but I recall that most were reassured by it, it was what they were currently doing/expecting
JR - coming back to phone call - did you give any written advice
IB - no written advice
JR - how often did you give advice on trans policies in that period
IB - frequently, once a week
JR - any other queries on CRs
IB - no
JR - when did you next hear about these individuals?
IB - an email from KS on 8 Dec
JR - what did you make of her email
IB - I thought it was a reasonable email, she was looking on how to support someone she was supervising, we did not have a policy
JR - what are you telling her
in your email
IB - I'm ref the OfS policy, we were expecting it very soon, it might be helpful
JR - what's the geo scope of the OfS policy
IB - all Scottish NHS
JR when were you next contacted
IB - I was contacted when I was on annual leave for Christmas
JR - when did you go on leave
IB - I think it was 24 Dec
JR - when did you return from leave -
IB - 3 Jan
JR - you got a Datix and the email from KS when you got back from holiday, not while on holiday, was that the doc you rec'd.
IB - that's not what I received, I just get 2lines and a link to click to read the datix.
JR - what did you think of it
IB - it seemed like an unpleasant incident
JR - email from KS; just after midnight on 30 December, in your inbox along with the Datix when you returned from leavewhat did you make of it
IB - I'm not sure if I saw that email before I saw the Datix, but I thought it would be worth a chat to see if they needed any advice
JR - what did you suggest was the next step
IB - I wanted to have a chat with her about the next steps for moving forward

Presumably if any TRA reported a post here for breaking the rules it would be relatively simple, if intrusive, for the poster in question to verify their identity with whoever was investigating and have that checked against the id list of observers.

I think what they mean is Sandie has to undergo a reflective practise

We're just all a bit twitchy about being closely monitored, and some jobsworth cutting off all remote access if we get reported, even if it was unfairly.

So she was giving advice weekly based on nothing and she didn't have to do a risk assessment on the advice she was giving because there was no policy.

It would be interesting to hear from other employees of the hospital as to how well served they felt they were by their EDI lead. Or whether Bumba was essentially a EDI Trans lead.

Ah, cross-posted with the same thought!

Surely an EDI lead should be considering the impact on others with a protected characteristic. Did she think her job was only about Trans?

It makes sense to me to have an overarching policy - maybe nuanced for local issues. But as we've seen, in Trust's single-sex accommodation policies, NHS England's bit on allowing trans people to use the toilet of their 'gender' has been copied and pasted into nearly every policy. So it came from the top - I wonder how the Isla Bumba's of the workplace could challenge this even if they wanted to assuming same issues in Scotland.

22 in total - territorial health boards and the national boards too.

All Bands 7 and above. Some will be 8B meaning the salary can be approx £80K per annum.

No probs I just didn't want to derail! Will continue and will put from TT at the top 😁

Following on TT.

Paraphrasing. Fortnightly meetings where they could share something, or a tool they’ve come across. I bet once the SC ruling came about they all said ‘right, we’ve had this all wrong. No men, irrespective of what they claim to be, in single sex female spaces. First meeting after judgement.

I also love how someone simply just can’t recall if they gave their comments on something. Oh dear. That is how nebulous the memory was of that incident. But they most definitely remember (very very clearly) reading the comments of others on how reassuring it all was.

A lot of them did as that's where the money was.

I doubt that EDI culture ever considered a clash of interests. I stand to be corrected, but she’d have to be a genius to have figured it out by herself, while embedded in EDI culture.

Surely its negligent to be asked a legal question as part of your job and then not even look up what the law is, let alone get legal advice, and then just copy what someone else said without even checking it?

I remember trying to discover who had written a policy on drug administration by care workers in the community that was so dangerous it could have resulted in serious injury or death. Nobody in the Trust had any idea who the author was and had no interest in finding out. I think it was somebody based in social services who had somehow got a role on a committee somewhere. This sort of thing goes on all the time.

Well you only have to follow the news. Unless you close your mind to the other side of the argument to enable you to ignore it of course.

It could be that when you joined, you clicked the video box to off.
After lunch, when we come back, double check the boxes before you log in.

It can be confusing, so make sure all video and audio boxes and not crossed out, as long and you join as observer, it will automatically turn off YOUR mic and camera.

or you could clear cookies and make sure nothing is blocked on the page by any of your extensions, i.e. adblocker etc.

From TT

JR - next email from KS to you, suggests a chat, did you have a chat that day
IB - I feel like I maybe spoke to her on the desk phone, to agree if I would pop down to ED, but something came up and I never managed to get down there
JR - your email says you didn't pop down,
chaotic Monday, you suggest Teams call, but she was off the next day she says
IB - yes
JR - you reply, no worries, refer her to the draft trans policy
IB - it was the patient policy
JR - did you speak to her around this time
IB - I don't think I spoke to her around this time
I sent her the consultation around the patient policy, it would be helpful for her in ED
JR - what the process for a Datix, how were you copied
IB - it's an automated system, depends on what people tick on the form who it's directed to, protected characteristics and interpreters
would come to me.
JR - what happened next
IB - it's not standard for me to get involved just because I'm copied on a Datix, but did speak with Maggie and ED.
JR - what did you say to ED
IB - that from what I read it seemed like an unpleasant incident and I suggested they get advice from HR. I don't recall what else was said to me. They may have already done that, my advice was reiterating what they had already thought was the right thing.
JR - what did you say it might discriminatory
IB - from the Datix, it sounded like comments about trans status

This is my experience of EDI in the NHS.

So she referred them to HR. Pass the buck!

They betray their stance with
"While no formal sanctions have been imposed"

From TT

IB - from the Datix, it sounded like comments about trans status and it was flagged by the person who wrote it as a hate incident, suggests discriminatory
JR - we have a copy of the Datix, you've mentioned there were comments about persons trans status, what do you read there
IB - says on Nurse A's comments about Drs trans status, chromosomes ref to convicted rapist.
JR - and what about the following para
IB - suggests Dr tried to end convo, seek mediation, but Nurse would not accept that
JR - what about escalation of behaviours mentioned
IB - it says an escalation of prior behaviours

!!!!!!!