Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/07/2025 08:26

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Cailleach1 · 16/07/2025 11:20

Following on TT. Nitter version, as I’m not on Twitter either.

https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

nauticant · 16/07/2025 11:21

Pinknotpurple · 16/07/2025 11:19

I can't even follow TT on twitter, I've been suspected of being a robot too many times. Thank goodness for the Herald

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:
Deadcog · 16/07/2025 11:21

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 11:18

IB - relays degrees, (did not get all details) bachelors in immunology, master degree in public health

(From TT)

So nothing about the law then...

The Herald mentions a Masters in progress in Health Management specialising in equalities(?).

InvisibleDragon · 16/07/2025 11:22

Reflective practice sessions are quite common in healthcare. It's generally a team discussion group where there is a focus on the emotional impact of a case/patient/working environment - eg Balint groups for doctors.

Facilitated probably refers to having a professional facilitator (likely from outside the team, possibly external to NHS Fife) lead the discussion.

Sometimes these sessions can be really meaningful and helpful. Other times they are an absolutely excruciating nails on blackboard experience.

As a facilitator, I would feel very uncomfortable with the idea that participants were required to attend as the outcome of a disciplinary hearing. It doesn't work at all if participants can't trust that the session is confidential, or if they are under pressure to say particular things.

Pinknotpurple · 16/07/2025 11:22

Thank you both 💓

Have given up all ideas of getting work done today

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 11:22

JR - page 1186, email not sent by you or to you, but mentions you, please read it. I will ask you about it. JR - Doyle refers to a discussion, says he made contact with you on 29 Aug, and 2nd discussion you had with MC, can you recall the first discussion IB - I don't recall
JR - do you recall MC discussion IB - I don't recall a discussion that day JR - regarding the email with advice he says you gave, do your have a view on the bullet points IB - missed JR - can you recall a discussion with Esther Davison (ED)

I reckon we're going to get a lot more 'do not recalls'

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 11:22

I don't think I'd want to be Isla Bumba today. She can never have envisaged this is where her decisions and advice would End up.

ThreeWordHarpy · 16/07/2025 11:22

I’ve had a reply from the Tribunal. I sent a polite email saying I applied on 1st July, I noted the FCFS criteria, said I was disappointed but appreciated the work this case is causing them and asked to be added to a waiting list for observer spaces

Unfortunately, we cannot provide access of the hearing to you on this occasion

Angry
maltravers · 16/07/2025 11:22

What other health boards were doing - sheep follow sheep.

viques · 16/07/2025 11:23

wantmorenow · 16/07/2025 10:04

Statement from NHS Fife
"After reviewing the evidence presented, including written submissions and witness testimony, the panel found that there was insufficient evidence to support a finding of misconduct. While no formal sanctions have been imposed, the panel concluded that a facilitated reflective practice discussion would be appropriate.

"NHS Fife acknowledges that this was a complex and sensitive matter, and we are satisfied that the process has been appropriately followed and is now concluded.
We remain committed to fostering a respectful, inclusive, and safe working environment for all of our staff and patients."

Does “a facilitated reflective practice discussion” mean that Upton had to sit in the same room as Sandie and apologise for lying and trying to ruin her career by making up allegations of professional misconduct and generally behaving like an entitled little child who has been told they can’t have the cake and eat it?

I do hope so.

SidewaysOtter · 16/07/2025 11:23

Bundle issues, you say?

<stamps bingo card with a flourish>

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 11:24

JR - what did you say
IB - I said it might be discriminatory not to allow the person to use the CR that aligned with their GI but it might be worth having a convo with the person, were they open about trans status

ickky · 16/07/2025 11:24

@SidewaysOtter

We have also had a "I don't recall"

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 11:24

SidewaysOtter · 16/07/2025 11:23

Bundle issues, you say?

<stamps bingo card with a flourish>

Special bonus bingo points if RMW appears on this thread to complain about us talking about bundles.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 11:24

JR - explain to the ET how you arrived at your advice to ED
IB - i went on my understanding of that para, and what other health boards in Scotland were doing, we didn't have a policy at the time.

prh47bridge · 16/07/2025 11:25

My only information is from TT.

Clearly no settlement yet and NHS Fife continuing to offer evidence. The result of the disciplinary cuts away a lot of what they've argued so far. Not clear if they think they have to try and defend their actions because SP won't settle, or if they really think they can still win despite the SC ruling and the outcome of the disciplinary.

Longlivethebling · 16/07/2025 11:25

I am not watching, just reading Tribunal Tweets and already thinking Isla is going to get skewered by Naomi.

MarieDeGournay · 16/07/2025 11:25

Thanks for the TT Nitter link!

anyolddinosaur · 16/07/2025 11:26

Dont think disciplinary process covered Upton as Sandie had not alleged anything against him. There could be a disciplinary process still, I guess. Maybe Searle will start one if this case shows he seriously misled her.

maltravers · 16/07/2025 11:26

viques · 16/07/2025 11:23

Does “a facilitated reflective practice discussion” mean that Upton had to sit in the same room as Sandie and apologise for lying and trying to ruin her career by making up allegations of professional misconduct and generally behaving like an entitled little child who has been told they can’t have the cake and eat it?

I do hope so.

I suspect they are trying to hint it is SP who needs the reflective practice discussion (ie is in the wrong) without saying so and making their legal position worse.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 11:27

JR - guidelines for supporting trans staff and patients, version 2.0 Jan 2016. Approved on on 18 July 2018.

J - it says St Helens & Nosely (sp?) Teaching hospital, is that the same document
JR - back to 1124, is this a Fife doc or from another trust?
IB - I don't believe this is Fife document, but I don't know where it came from, I have seen it before.

NC - < Brighton and Sussex>
J - is this in evidence
JR - I believe this is relatively uncontroversial
NC - agrees
<page numbers and sources set out for ET>

SidewaysOtter · 16/07/2025 11:27

ickky · 16/07/2025 11:24

@SidewaysOtter

We have also had a "I don't recall"

I'm holding out for "reversing into a bin".

maltravers · 16/07/2025 11:27

If IB was following Brighton’s lead it’s hardly surprising we are where we are.

nauticant · 16/07/2025 11:28

We always need a bincident.

OP posts:
anyolddinosaur · 16/07/2025 11:28

Nitter gets blocked by my virus checker. I rely the herald, you lot and the thread unroll TT publish later.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.