Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/07/2025 08:26

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
BoreOfWhabylon · 15/07/2025 18:49

ThreeWordHarpy · 15/07/2025 17:40

When did you apply Bore?

Can't remember exactly but well before the cut-off date

Skyellaskerry · 15/07/2025 19:02

Does anyone have a rough idea of the timings of the sessions please?

I didn’t apply for access this time, but preparing for being significantly distracted during the day and likely having to work early/late to make up like I did last time.

ILikeDungs · 15/07/2025 19:04

"I applied on the evening of 1st July and have heard nothing apart from the acknowledgement."

Same here. Gutted.

CriticalCondition · 15/07/2025 19:09

They generally sit from 10-1 and 2-4 but those times are not fixed and starts/finishes/lunch/breaks may vary depending on witnesses, natural pause points in counsel's questioning etc.

Szygy · 15/07/2025 19:14

I feel bad saying this when others didn’t get the email they were hoping for, but I’ve been given access. I applied as soon as I saw it on here, which was fairly soon after we got the alert.

OverripeBananaBread · 15/07/2025 19:15

GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:50

I have a question. Apologies if this has already been covered. I don't know how long the tribunal is going to last, but do we have to sign in every day?
If we miss a day will we lose access? Or can you just dip in and out once you have had access granted?
(I don't think I'll be able to commit to every day for the next few weeks)

Nothing about this strikes me as being tech savvy, or using any of the possible tech solutions to their full potential.

I sincerely doubt they have any system or ability to monitor people in that way.

Skyellaskerry · 15/07/2025 19:18

CriticalCondition · 15/07/2025 19:09

They generally sit from 10-1 and 2-4 but those times are not fixed and starts/finishes/lunch/breaks may vary depending on witnesses, natural pause points in counsel's questioning etc.

Thank you 😊

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/07/2025 19:20

334bu · 15/07/2025 08:26

https://archive.is/YlTjo

Kevin McKenna from the Herald not pulling any punches.

Thanks for an excellent read. That article reminds me of Shauny Boy’s videos on the subject of cronyism in Scottish civic society: frank and takes no prisoners.

The curse of small nations means that similar behaviour from the public and third sector applies here in Ireland, both sides of the border.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 19:25

GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:50

I have a question. Apologies if this has already been covered. I don't know how long the tribunal is going to last, but do we have to sign in every day?
If we miss a day will we lose access? Or can you just dip in and out once you have had access granted?
(I don't think I'll be able to commit to every day for the next few weeks)

11 days, I think?

From the instructions so far, they seem to have deliberately given themselves leeway to make decisions on that as the situation demands, with references to the fact that access may be revoked and offered to someone next in line, in time order on the list.

They aren't going to know how many people will attend/drop out until the tribunal is in session. They also won't know how well-behaved/problematic the observers will be, so I expect they will make the best decisions about how to use their time when they have a clearer idea.

If observers haven't read the instructions and make live commentary online (in the way that I don't think was prohibited in February), then they could still pull us all offline anyway. If people don't sign in for each session, they could offer places to next in line, but that could take up a lot of time, if very many people have made other plans or if the next person (x100) accepts a place but also drop outs after one day.

I am planning to sign in on a laptop in a room for my own use only, and will inevitably have to lock the screen and pop out to run errands from time to time. If that gets me evicted, eg if I fail to notice when I next need to log in, then I will just have to suck it up and hope someone else enjoys my place!

ickky · 15/07/2025 20:14

@NebulousSupportPostcard

If people don't sign in for each session, they could offer places to next in line

I read the instructions and didn't see this, where did they say that?

Chrysanthemum5 · 15/07/2025 20:15

I applied as soon as it was possible to do so but haven't got a space. No idea how they have allocated them

anyzee · 15/07/2025 20:21

WRT the dilemma about discussing live/text proceedings and the possibility of reporting by TRAs if this thread is (innocently by those not aware of the rule) in breach - is anyone going to monitor the trans boards on reddit/twix etc for similar breaches?

spannasaurus · 15/07/2025 20:24

anyzee · 15/07/2025 20:21

WRT the dilemma about discussing live/text proceedings and the possibility of reporting by TRAs if this thread is (innocently by those not aware of the rule) in breach - is anyone going to monitor the trans boards on reddit/twix etc for similar breaches?

There's no point because if you report a breach anywhere it could result in remote access being revoked

RNApolymerase · 15/07/2025 20:28

I think that those who would rather we didn't have this space might pop up and break the rules accidentally on purpose.

Conxis · 15/07/2025 20:40

Needspaceforlego · 15/07/2025 17:44

I'd think it's an admission they have tried to settle out of court.
They'd dearly love this to be swept under the carpet. They know they have backed the wrong horse. They know they have fucked up. They know they are in for a kicking.

Who's still going to be in a job at the end of the month?
I'll take a guess 'Beth' will go for another alternative name maybe even his actual name and move on.

Leaving others in the shit!

They may have tried to settle over the suspension/how badly they treated her.
But there’s the refusal to change the changing room policy. I read somewhere she’d already asked for guarantees they’d be no men in the ladies if she returned to work and they wouldn’t guarantee that. There’s also the small matter of the professional misconduct allegations which is really the most serious thing Sandie is facing. I’m not surprised she won’t settle.
Wishing her all the luck in the world, she is an amazingly strong and principled woman

ThatCyanCat · 15/07/2025 20:42

RNApolymerase · 15/07/2025 20:28

I think that those who would rather we didn't have this space might pop up and break the rules accidentally on purpose.

I'm sure they will. We should report and make no response when they do.

lcakethereforeIam · 15/07/2025 21:07

I've not read the full thread, it's been moving so fast, so apologies if this has already been posted

NHS bosses warned not to ‘scapegoat’ young official over trans row https://share.google/oTURbujFGUvLENysB

The above link should bypass the paywall

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/07/15/nhs-bosses-trans-doctor-sandie-peggie-scapegoat-beth-upton/

A link or the article.

For the record I agree, although I remember the sympathy for Upton until he was actually giving evidence. I hope IB isn't another one of those. Even if she is though, she still shouldn't carry the can for the whole debacle.

Needspaceforlego · 15/07/2025 21:28

Conxis · 15/07/2025 20:40

They may have tried to settle over the suspension/how badly they treated her.
But there’s the refusal to change the changing room policy. I read somewhere she’d already asked for guarantees they’d be no men in the ladies if she returned to work and they wouldn’t guarantee that. There’s also the small matter of the professional misconduct allegations which is really the most serious thing Sandie is facing. I’m not surprised she won’t settle.
Wishing her all the luck in the world, she is an amazingly strong and principled woman

Totally agree.
She is 100% doing the right thing. Absolutely amazing lady. I have so much admiration and respect for her.
She is carrying the rights of every single person in the UK on her shoulders. Many men wouldn't want to share single sex spaces with transmen (women in disguise) either.

You can absolutely guarantee that they'll be others who were equally uncomfortable in that changing room but weren't brave enough to come forward and fight.
Brave maybe isn't the right word because they'll be a load of reasons why people don't want to fight, the bullying by NHS Fife (ie suspension), fear of ruining promotion prospects, unable to risk financial security, MH reasons.

Harassedevictee · 15/07/2025 21:37

I think the risk of interruptions from online observers has been significantly reduced.

We have to log on as observers and the microphone/camera is disabled at all times. If we don’t log on as observer we will be disconnected.

PutThe · 15/07/2025 21:47

Not sure if this point about potential conflict of interest between BU and Fife has been discussed on here yet, but I thought it was interesting. Especially the tweet about difficulties having a frank talk about settling.

https://x.com/Broonjunior/status/1944722571208913001

That's quite a delicate position for Jane Russell to be in, professional conduct wise.

https://x.com/Broonjunior/status/1944722571208913001

SqueakyDinosaur · 15/07/2025 22:01

This has just made me laugh: https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945144408103346335

(also, that Twitter account is worth a follow - it did good daily summaries of the first part of the tribunal and is gearing up to do the same from tomorrow)

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945144408103346335

FannyCann · 15/07/2025 22:09

334bu · 15/07/2025 08:26

https://archive.is/YlTjo

Kevin McKenna from the Herald not pulling any punches.

Brilliant. Thank you.

Loved this at the end:

"Scotland’s governing class are like cockroaches. No matter how unintelligent, craven, unprincipled and dishonest they are, they will always thrive. They’ve managed to create refuges whose true nature is hidden from the public and which will always welcome them and sustain them.
The grants they award to their pet organisations while in office serve another purpose beyond disseminating the state’s propaganda. They’re meant to ensure these syndicates will all still be in rude financial health when they come knocking on their door for a tidy, per diem contract after politics."

Conxis · 15/07/2025 22:21

PutThe · 15/07/2025 21:47

Not sure if this point about potential conflict of interest between BU and Fife has been discussed on here yet, but I thought it was interesting. Especially the tweet about difficulties having a frank talk about settling.

https://x.com/Broonjunior/status/1944722571208913001

That's quite a delicate position for Jane Russell to be in, professional conduct wise.

Moronic shite😂
I’ve often wondered what Fife health board really think of their decision to mount a joint defence with Dr Upton after seeing the tribunal “performance”.
Surely someone thought wtf have we done here!

JR must surely be regretting running a joint defence. Don’t know who’s idea it was

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 22:21

RNApolymerase · 15/07/2025 20:28

I think that those who would rather we didn't have this space might pop up and break the rules accidentally on purpose.

They would be committing a criminal offence that could potentially be traced back to them. If anyone is willing to risk a criminal record for the sake of supporting either party in a civil case, they are absolutely bonkers, but that's entirely on them I guess.

Hopefully any court discussion of the application to examine Dr U's phone will be a sober reminder that there are some risks not worth taking. You can bet that after contemplating the possibility, Dr U may have felt as badly as if his phone had been examined, even if it never happened!

EDIT: sorry I may have confused two consecutive posts, but will leave this for the record with the explanation that I thought you meant people might break rules about transmitting or commenting on parts of the tribunal that haven't been authorised or published by someone with a press pass, etc. Given some of the level of discourse on reddit, I suspect this might happen but really hope noone messes up for their sake or for the sake of future open justice/remote access.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.