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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/07/2025 08:26

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 16:47

ThreeWordHarpy · 15/07/2025 16:33

I applied on the evening of 1st July and have heard nothing apart from the acknowledgement. 🙁

Fingers crossed for you that they have sorted us into groups by time of application + some random admin reason, and that you are allocated to a clerk that is still double and triple checking their list!

NotNatacha · 15/07/2025 16:48

I applied on 5 July and received the access email at lunchtime today.

I don’t know if it made any difference that I had access using the same name and email as I used for the previous part of the hearing and didn’t cause any disruption then. I wonder if they have the joining details of those who did, and can work out who didn’t.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 16:54

saveforthat · 15/07/2025 14:01

I'm in 5 but as we are not contributing can't see what difference it would make.

Each of three rooms is served by a different clerk so I'm hoping it means that, as of now, there is still hope for a lot of people who applied early that their clerk's office just hasn't managed to send their instructions out yet!

GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:01

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 15/07/2025 15:34

It isn't scary, feminist twitter is great.

Sorry to derail slightly and probably a stupid question but what does this mean? I often see references to 'feminist Twitter' 'lesbian Twitter' and so on, on but I thought there was only one Twitter/X. Does it mean the feminists who lost on Twitter or is it actually separate platforms?

ThreeWordHarpy · 15/07/2025 17:01

If I don’t hear by 10am tomorrow morning I will chase it up, but I fully expect the response would be “tough shit” if they are at capacity.

Maybe I can ask to go onto a waiting list or something.

ThreeWordHarpy · 15/07/2025 17:02

But useful to know that many applied after me and were successful so if it really is FCFS then I should expect to have access too, and I will make that point.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 17:07

CriticalCondition · 15/07/2025 15:53

I agree. I think the direction is poorly worded but the intention is to prevent an observer assuming an unsanctioned Tribunal Tweets type role in reporting proceedings. Not in preventing comment.

But then it's difficult to know whether they would regard comment on not the words uttered but say the demeanor of a witness as potentially contravening the test of interfering with the administration of justice.

On balance I'm not going to put it to the test and will be sitting on my hands.

Agreed!

Also, we must remember that TT ended up having to be represented at a case management hearing, after Fife complained about an error in their transcript, and used it as a reason to request that online access should be withdrawn for the rest of the case.

Whatever the outcome of this tribunal, there may well be an appeal, and we don't want to find ourselves at the centre of a row over future remote attendance.

Also, I was re-reading the TT notes yesterday and reached the part where a session ended with JR saying "someone is sketching my client", and the judge closing with "stop sketching please!"

So when they catch up with themselves they will probably have to add a lot of forbidden means of transmission to the list, to stop people being nuisances.

But I suspect I would die on the spot if I even accidentally found myself being told off by a judge, so I think I will be erring vvvvv much on the side of caution anyway!

ifIwerenotanandroid · 15/07/2025 17:09

GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:01

Sorry to derail slightly and probably a stupid question but what does this mean? I often see references to 'feminist Twitter' 'lesbian Twitter' and so on, on but I thought there was only one Twitter/X. Does it mean the feminists who lost on Twitter or is it actually separate platforms?

I guess it means feminists on twitter. If you follow feminist accounts & then choose 'home' to mean only the people you follow, then you'll see a feminist subset of twitter. I find that plus immediately blocking any account I find offensive, boring, etc, makes for a better experience.

DrUptonsGardenGnome · 15/07/2025 17:12

I think I’m a bit behind with this one. I had a link last time and watched some of the proceedings before we were all kicked out. Will that link work again or was I supposed to apply anew? If so, is it now too late to apply?

anyolddinosaur · 15/07/2025 17:13

Wbat NHS Fife actually said on their website "On the ongoing employment tribunal, NHS Fife’s spokesperson added: “The claimant has said, in her statement, that she is determined to continue with her legal claim. The claimant is of course entitled to pursue her legal action. As a result, NHS Fife, as respondent, shall be required to continue to defend the case through the appropriate legal process. The case involves a range of complex matters, including an internal investigation that was initiated following concerns raised by a member of staff. NHS Fife believes it had a responsibility to fully investigate such matters.”"

Which I interpret a "that pesky woman wont just drop her case so we have to go on defending it". Nothing to suggest they have made her an offer to settle. I suspect we'll only find that out in a discussion about costs.

I thought Kate Searle had been listed on the GMC registration, but thread 17 says not. Still very interesting that Fife didnt care about protecting the anonymity of any of it's witnesses except Searle and Upton. Now does anyone know if the responsible officer being unchanged means Upton still works for Fife or just that he doesnt have a job elsewhere yet?

nauticant · 15/07/2025 17:20

DrUptonsGardenGnome · 15/07/2025 17:12

I think I’m a bit behind with this one. I had a link last time and watched some of the proceedings before we were all kicked out. Will that link work again or was I supposed to apply anew? If so, is it now too late to apply?

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

OP posts:
SirChenjins · 15/07/2025 17:21

I bet NHS Fife are fuming. I'd put money on them having made a settlement offer to SP to which she replied 🖕, and now they face corporate and professional humiliation in the courts.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 15/07/2025 17:27

GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:01

Sorry to derail slightly and probably a stupid question but what does this mean? I often see references to 'feminist Twitter' 'lesbian Twitter' and so on, on but I thought there was only one Twitter/X. Does it mean the feminists who lost on Twitter or is it actually separate platforms?

What it means for me is that I follow a number of feminist accounts and organisations and have my account set to see the accounts I want to, rather than content twitter chooses, so I see a lot of feminist content. On twitter you can choose 'following' or 'for you'. I follow a lot of other stuff too which balances things out nicely.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 17:34

anyolddinosaur · 15/07/2025 17:13

Wbat NHS Fife actually said on their website "On the ongoing employment tribunal, NHS Fife’s spokesperson added: “The claimant has said, in her statement, that she is determined to continue with her legal claim. The claimant is of course entitled to pursue her legal action. As a result, NHS Fife, as respondent, shall be required to continue to defend the case through the appropriate legal process. The case involves a range of complex matters, including an internal investigation that was initiated following concerns raised by a member of staff. NHS Fife believes it had a responsibility to fully investigate such matters.”"

Which I interpret a "that pesky woman wont just drop her case so we have to go on defending it". Nothing to suggest they have made her an offer to settle. I suspect we'll only find that out in a discussion about costs.

I thought Kate Searle had been listed on the GMC registration, but thread 17 says not. Still very interesting that Fife didnt care about protecting the anonymity of any of it's witnesses except Searle and Upton. Now does anyone know if the responsible officer being unchanged means Upton still works for Fife or just that he doesnt have a job elsewhere yet?

I don't think KS was ever listed on BU's GMC reg. Her relation to him was supervisor whilst he was on a one year 'fellowship' placement for junior doctors, which is a fairly common scheme by which doctors can be employed on a staff grade, and be affilliated with a university, at a time usually early in their career before they decide whether to undertake specialist training, or settle into a more permanent staff grade role in any particular department.

I think they would have wanted anonymity for KS because she is the lead clinician who promotes and provides induction and manages the placement of around 30 fellowship doctors every year. It will have been an absolute nightmare of a task filling those places and preparing for a 1 August induction fortnight for junior doctors who will have followed the entire case and know what an absolute hash she made of that situation. Whichever side you support, her rash intervention only made things worse.

The most recent Case management note that includes the woitness list has Beth Upton's work address as St Margaret Hospital, Dunfermline, within Fife Health board. I don't think we know anything about Upton's actual place of work beyond the Fife address for court purposes. Which is probably for the best for minimising disruption to patient care.

I vaguely remember reading that Upton was working in a different hospital and department, around the Feb tribunal dates. But it's quite possible that Fife have supported/encouraged both Sandie and Upton to take as much time off as they need, because with the best will in the world, their presence might bring disruption while the case is ongoing and there is so much divisive interest. We know Sandie has been off with stress, and Upton has needed counselling. Either of them could potentially have wanted to go back to work, but if they wanted time off, sick pay or special leave might be seen as a good use of resources right now, to avoid a further claim later on if the work environment becomes toxic for any reason.

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/07/2025 17:38

Looks like no remote access for me Sad
I'm relying on you all for word pictures.

ThreeWordHarpy · 15/07/2025 17:40

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/07/2025 17:38

Looks like no remote access for me Sad
I'm relying on you all for word pictures.

When did you apply Bore?

Needspaceforlego · 15/07/2025 17:44

MarieDeGournay · 15/07/2025 16:10

I think I've picked up enough from these discussions to suspect that NHS Fife have an ulterior motive in emphasising that the case is going on because SP wants to carry on.
I think it might be to present themselves as the reasonable ones, and SP as the unreasonable one who is insisting on prolonging the case, which might have a bearing on any costs awarded?

I'd think it's an admission they have tried to settle out of court.
They'd dearly love this to be swept under the carpet. They know they have backed the wrong horse. They know they have fucked up. They know they are in for a kicking.

Who's still going to be in a job at the end of the month?
I'll take a guess 'Beth' will go for another alternative name maybe even his actual name and move on.

Leaving others in the shit!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 17:45

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/07/2025 17:38

Looks like no remote access for me Sad
I'm relying on you all for word pictures.

Tribunal tweets on tweiiter has permission to live tweet.

As observers we are under strict instruction not to share, and some of us are already posting upthread about plans to limit our interaction here as necessary to avoid accidentally saying something that TT hasn't covered.

I hadn't really thought this through at the time of applying to the court, but after seeing the instructions, it makes sense that, to protect the integrity of the remote viewing process, they have just had to put the observers on a tight leash.

GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:46

ifIwerenotanandroid · 15/07/2025 17:09

I guess it means feminists on twitter. If you follow feminist accounts & then choose 'home' to mean only the people you follow, then you'll see a feminist subset of twitter. I find that plus immediately blocking any account I find offensive, boring, etc, makes for a better experience.

Ah ok. That's what I already do. I follow numerous women and as such I generally only see like-minded tweeters. I just thought maybe I was missing out on a feminist Twitter I didn't know about 😆

nauticant · 15/07/2025 17:47

It makes sense to me because as remote observers we are effectively "in the room" in a way that's directly equivalent to someone being there in person.

OP posts:
GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:50

I have a question. Apologies if this has already been covered. I don't know how long the tribunal is going to last, but do we have to sign in every day?
If we miss a day will we lose access? Or can you just dip in and out once you have had access granted?
(I don't think I'll be able to commit to every day for the next few weeks)

ThreeWordHarpy · 15/07/2025 17:53

GreenFriedTomato · 15/07/2025 17:50

I have a question. Apologies if this has already been covered. I don't know how long the tribunal is going to last, but do we have to sign in every day?
If we miss a day will we lose access? Or can you just dip in and out once you have had access granted?
(I don't think I'll be able to commit to every day for the next few weeks)

The information on the timing of the tribunal in the first post of the thread.

we don’t know if observers will be able to dip in and out/miss a day and keep their access.

ApolloandDaphne · 15/07/2025 17:59

I will follow TT to get updates. They were very thorough last time.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 15/07/2025 18:30

Needspaceforlego · 15/07/2025 17:44

I'd think it's an admission they have tried to settle out of court.
They'd dearly love this to be swept under the carpet. They know they have backed the wrong horse. They know they have fucked up. They know they are in for a kicking.

Who's still going to be in a job at the end of the month?
I'll take a guess 'Beth' will go for another alternative name maybe even his actual name and move on.

Leaving others in the shit!

But if Upton does that surely that make an even bigger point about safeguarding rules.

IAmNotASheep · 15/07/2025 18:32

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/07/2025 16:54

Each of three rooms is served by a different clerk so I'm hoping it means that, as of now, there is still hope for a lot of people who applied early that their clerk's office just hasn't managed to send their instructions out yet!

That could make sense as I’ve only applied today and heard nothing back.

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