NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #4

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

I think it will just go on witness statements and they will carry on, no?

Do I need a fresh link for each day of the tribunal or will today's link and pin work? Thanks

No same one @Rogerisourlodger

The problem is you can’t cross examine on witness statements, which would be unfair given the claimant witnesses all had to endure cross examination

Clinical Fellow posts are usually fixed term contracts.

Can you imagine offering this man a job with his terrible sickness record, habitual panic attacks, tendency to call in the union every other day and history of harassing nursing staff?

Please can someone explain what NC objected to? And whether the judge intervention is good or bad?

Thanks

Archie Gemmill moment (if you're old enough)

I suspect that that is what he is worried about re his identity being out there, not the dead naming. FAFO.

I don't see how you could continue if one witness refused to be cross examined.

That would set a precedent for every witness to get out of cross-examination.

Could anyone say what Sandie was like and the main kind of response she had?

I'm invested now for sure

IANAL - but dont see how a case can fail when one of the respondents is a health authority. And if the other is not prepared to be cross examined then the court should feel able to make the appropriate inferences from that. In a criminal court I believe that would mean accepting the version of events given by Sandie as she was cross examined.

That's a good point. His trans-self aside no one wants to employ or be cared for by a doctor who screams emotional wreck.

If he intends to continue in medicine in any way shape or form, I don't see he has any choice but to get a grip and continue.

Surely the defence of the case will fail if the respondent refuses to answer questions at the tribunal. Jeepers, he brought a three ringed circus along with him today, with a gang of people whose at one purpose appeared to be to conceal him from public view, and seemed rather a little intimidating in my opinion.

If Dr U can't handle being told they shouldn't be in a women's changing room, how ON EARTH will he handle a cross examination by a highly intelligent, skilful barrister who's totally on top of her game?

Calm, genuine, appeared straight forward, honest, uncowed in the face of extreme hostility and unnoleasantness

Thank you so much to all reporting for the rest of us.

Seconded! I don't think I could cope with actually watching it.

Yes, and all the shenanigans before appearing was to eat up precious time as well. Was it 20 minutes?

Would be super helpful if he could give us tips to tell the difference in advance 👍

Not encouraged. Dr U said they "discussed next steps" That the consultant completed the Datix and that she was careful to check the wording with him. Then they discussed what to do next and "it was agreed" he would draft a formal complaint. That is all passive language and Dr U has said the other staff said supportive (reflective listening validations were quoted which is not agreement). Dr U is definitely in the driving seat wanting to take it further. But then was looking for problems and taking notes from the off. Not at all the behaviour of someone "not wanting to make a fuss".

Years ago I went with DD on a primary trip to a hindu temple. The boys in the class were awful, behaving really badly and I worried we wouldn't get them home safe. The girls followed instructions and got no credit for it as everyone was too busy herding the mad cats. In the temple we were behind a tape barrier which I thought was to keep visitors out of the area of visitor worship. The attendant pulled back the tape and ushered only the boys through with the only male adult on the trip. All the girls, the teacher and the mums were made to stay at the back "outside". (More fool him as they continued to behave awfully but now with only 1 adult!) Anyway the red mist descended and I was horrified. Like Dr U I had never experienced direct discrimination of this kind before and it was grim. I hated that DD had to stand there and be told no just because she was female. I did a lot of grumping to anyone who would listen and said that no other school trips should go there. I didn't want to cause a fuss so I made a personal protest and removed us from the situation. What I didn't do was lodge a complaint because this segregation is a religious observance under the EA and I just have to get used to it.

While I understand the upset and anger that Dr U felt in the CR, I am disappointed that they was unable to see that someone else had rights that were being violated. When they later found out that SP had been told to speak to him in the CR they should have taken this up with management rather than declare a "hate incident" and shoot the messenger

Does anyone know how tall he is and how tall Sandie is? Can't help wondering if she's 5 foot 5 and he's 6"2 which makes the whole oh I'm so afraid seem even more ludicrous than it does already.

I feel sorry for the many bright, motivated 6th formers waiting on med school offers right now who won't get places, when one was wasted on this person.

So basically according to BU’s evidence today:

• If SP doesn’t look at BU when he wants her to – it’s harassment but if SP looks at BU when he doesn’t want her to it’s “aggressive” and also harassment.
• If SP waits outside the changing room – it’s harassment but if she comes into the changing room then that is also harassment.
• If SP answers a question directly to the person who asked it and doesn’t look at DU (in A&E) it’s harassment but if she speaks to DU directly making eye contact in the changing room then that is harassment.
• DU doesn’t like people observing him changing clothes but SP not wanting to be watched is harassment.
• DU from the outset was taking time recording who made eye contact, said hi in a “friendly way” that they were taking time out of their clinical work to record their hurt feelings.
• DU’s hurt feelings over a difference of opinion resulted in such “trauma” of the changing room dispute that they have had months off work, MH treatment, counselling and refused to work with SP – yet SP is expected to suck up being accused of a hate crime on the basis of the above
• BU had a case ready to go, rallied support from the BMA to get it reported as a “hate crime” for not wanting to undress in front of him

Fair summary?

Thank you so much for all the reporting, I've been lurking on all of the threads. Yonks ago as a junior doctor it was very clear that if you need to get on the right side of the nurses for things to run smoothly. We rotated through jobs every 4-6 months but they were there for years with a wealth of experience. What the hell went wrong? I can't get over how arrogant Dr Upton is. I'm a GP now and am utterly dependent on my team to be able to provide good clinical care.

Secondly, a point that I struggled to get past: Dr Upton has a wife? I have so many questions about this. Married before or after transition?