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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #4

1000 replies

nauticant · 06/02/2025 11:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:
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10
InvisibleDragon · 06/02/2025 17:05

I'm quite struck by how little insight DU seemed to have into the internal worlds of other people:

  • The assumption that SP must have been waiting for him in the changing room - not that she had any other reason to be there
  • The assumption that she was being rude or harassing him for giving a brief answer without eye contact when Rhianna fetched her to answer a question about the patient that left before assessment - not that she might have been surprised to be fetched from other tasks for this relatively trivial question or worrying that she missed something important
  • The extremely vague description he could give of what A&E nurses actually do (apart from doing obs) - TT has a quote that is something like "not sure really"
  • He enlisted his wife to help him draft a complaint letter at 3am on Christmas night

It's almost like other people only exist in relation to him and his needs.

myplace · 06/02/2025 17:06

InvisibleDragon · 06/02/2025 17:05

I'm quite struck by how little insight DU seemed to have into the internal worlds of other people:

  • The assumption that SP must have been waiting for him in the changing room - not that she had any other reason to be there
  • The assumption that she was being rude or harassing him for giving a brief answer without eye contact when Rhianna fetched her to answer a question about the patient that left before assessment - not that she might have been surprised to be fetched from other tasks for this relatively trivial question or worrying that she missed something important
  • The extremely vague description he could give of what A&E nurses actually do (apart from doing obs) - TT has a quote that is something like "not sure really"
  • He enlisted his wife to help him draft a complaint letter at 3am on Christmas night

It's almost like other people only exist in relation to him and his needs.

Absolutely.
Including his wife, I would think.

myplace · 06/02/2025 17:08

Again, multiple pictures of her, none of him. Were no reporters present?

TimeForATerf · 06/02/2025 17:09

Boiledbeetle · 06/02/2025 14:11

Most of these 'sad incidents' wouldn't even make it on to busy A And E dept staffs radar, but he's got time to not only watch for all these details but make copious notes about it during his actual shift in one occasion.

Who's supposed to be the bully again?

I know lol, no wonder the waiting times are 12 hours in some trusts.

ThatPithySheep · 06/02/2025 17:10

@myplace DrU walked in surrounded by people and wearing a face mask so I supposed that stopped people taking pictures. No cameras allowed in the tribunal room

CheekySnake · 06/02/2025 17:10

The BBC article today is appalling.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 06/02/2025 17:11

It's like the coverage of Tickle v Giggle.

No media outlet showed photos of Tickle, either, only the beautiful Sall.

I wonder why... 🤔

CheekySnake · 06/02/2025 17:12

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 06/02/2025 17:11

It's like the coverage of Tickle v Giggle.

No media outlet showed photos of Tickle, either, only the beautiful Sall.

I wonder why... 🤔

I know why.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 06/02/2025 17:12

fanOfBen · 06/02/2025 12:09

"Sometimes the nurses are trained to take bloods" - are there really nurses who aren't?

Yes, a lot!!

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 06/02/2025 17:14

Is it because Tickle looks like Junior Gorg from Fraggle Rock??

AlisonDonut · 06/02/2025 17:15

Ok I've cracked and requested access.

Thanks to everyone so far.

EasternStandard · 06/02/2025 17:17

myplace · 06/02/2025 17:08

Again, multiple pictures of her, none of him. Were no reporters present?

Why is that the case? None came up only SP

RobinEllacotStrike · 06/02/2025 17:17

InvisibleDragon · 06/02/2025 17:05

I'm quite struck by how little insight DU seemed to have into the internal worlds of other people:

  • The assumption that SP must have been waiting for him in the changing room - not that she had any other reason to be there
  • The assumption that she was being rude or harassing him for giving a brief answer without eye contact when Rhianna fetched her to answer a question about the patient that left before assessment - not that she might have been surprised to be fetched from other tasks for this relatively trivial question or worrying that she missed something important
  • The extremely vague description he could give of what A&E nurses actually do (apart from doing obs) - TT has a quote that is something like "not sure really"
  • He enlisted his wife to help him draft a complaint letter at 3am on Christmas night

It's almost like other people only exist in relation to him and his needs.

It's because he is one of the worlds most very special people who needs more rights than everyone else, plus complete agreement at all time, and total capitulation to the gender bollocks, just to be able to put his scrubs on.

BellissimoGecko · 06/02/2025 17:18

Drafting a formal complaint to send seperately. What support I might need. Referral to occupational health, speak to my GP, attend private counselling org via GP to process what had happened to me.

Fucking hell, all that over SP's comments to him in the changing room??

Some men's egos are incredibly fragile. 🙄

BellissimoGecko · 06/02/2025 17:18

ThatPithySheep · 06/02/2025 17:10

@myplace DrU walked in surrounded by people and wearing a face mask so I supposed that stopped people taking pictures. No cameras allowed in the tribunal room

And clearly a man, even with little face visible.

BellissimoGecko · 06/02/2025 17:20

Signalbox · 06/02/2025 16:58

Just been at work and catching up with TT. I’m left in no doubt that this guy is a full on TRA rather than a naive, hapless, trans person. This is pure fantasy…

DU - in front of men. Bad experience with men. I sympathised and she cut me off saying you don't, if you did you wouldn't be changing in here.

JR - why did you say you understood/sympathised.

DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny

DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience

Exactly! What an absolute load of AGP wishful thinking.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 06/02/2025 17:20

I feel for his wife, quite frankly.

JanesLittleGirl · 06/02/2025 17:22

I think that it is a good job that there are no photos of DU. Do you want the breakfast tables of Britain to be covered in snorted out cornflakes tomorrow morning?

ThatPithySheep · 06/02/2025 17:24

I think the people behind were his family - possibly including his wife, and maybe a support person

Ineedashero · 06/02/2025 17:27

can't remember if I asked this but when is the outcome due? And when is the outcome of the Scot Gov / FWS one due? Could be interesting if they are both good outcomes.

Comtesse · 06/02/2025 17:27

So can I just check I have understood this?

Dr U didn’t have a GRC but thought it was appropriate to use a women’s changing room? And objected vehemently to anyone who said that was a problem?

CheekySnake · 06/02/2025 17:28

Honestly, what I want is for people to clearly understand that this case is about an NHS hospital trying to manage a woman out of her job because she complained that a male member of staff was persistently using the female changing room.

I want them to see that Upton, who has described himself as being so traumatised by being told his presence in the female changing room was inappropriate that he burst into tears and needed mental health support, is in reality a large, well built man, as we all saw in that photo of him outside court this morning.

I want people to understand that a culture has been created in which men who lie about their sex are rewarded with access to female only spaces which men who do not lie about their sex are not allowed access to.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 06/02/2025 17:31

KnottyAuty · 06/02/2025 16:59

Quite - the events prior to Xmas eve (not being friendly; asking Dr to do observations with a time-pressured case; not making eye contact while speaking to a colleague/potentially ignoring) could add up to signs of a strained relationship but its hardly hateful. It comes down to the event on Xmas Eve and what was discussed.

DrU confirmed that SP had mentioned men in women's prisons and had not directly said Dr U was like the Isla ? case which if referred to directly would have implied Dr U was potentially a rapist. For that SP would be on shaky ground but as she didn't actually say those words or mention Isla ? by name, it is circumstantial at best. It is a fact that in Scotland TW are not to be placed in women's prisons and while Dr U might not like it, that is the situation. So for me this doesn't meet a standard of hate speech. Nor did the other items mentioned which I didn't manage to get full notes on.

Dr U referred to SP calling them a man/male and how they considered this to be an insult in the context of the CR. However again given that it is meant to be a female only space and the pre-trial hearing docs comfirm that Dr U is at the self ID phase of transition (no surgery) then they are currently more biologically male than female. How could SP have used any other language to explain this? I don't think it is fair to assume this is an insult as what other words could have been used to describe her discomfort and embarrassment - albeit by her using them she caused Dr U similar feelings.

If SP asked about Dr U's chromosomes then that is a personal and intrusive question. It is a "he said she said" situation. I imagine if this was said it followed on from Dr U saying something like "I am a woman". It was maybe misguided but again having been told by the E&D team to take it up with Dr U herself what language would be appropriate here? I am not sure how I could navigate this convo myself (while also wanting to deal with a menopausal flood in full flow - which is frankly horrible when it happens away from home).

When talking about the bullying policy JR asked Dr U to confirm how Sp's actions had met the criteria. They said she demonstrated "non acceptance" of their EA protected characteristic and this was a "deliberate behaviour". That it was the CR convo on the 24th that was a "hate incident" even though SP's behaviour overall "can't be described as consistent".

I was under the impression that problem behaviour had to be a consistent to be considered bullying. On the other hand Harrassment can be a one off incident of "unwanted behaviour" related to a protected characteristicr which:

  • violated the person's dignity
  • created an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for the person

So it seems that SP was suspended for saying Dr U should not be in the CR against hospital policy, for "non acceptance" of Dr U as a woman and for allegedly asking about chromosomes and creating a hostile environment - constituting harrassment (allegedly).

SP also alleges harrassment as Dr U used the women's CR when she was there 3 times which she alleges created an intimidating environment such that she felt that she had to remove herself from the CR on 2 occasions. She then followed D&I advice to speak to Dr U on the 3rd - which as we might expect was really bad advice and didn't go well

I get both points of view. NHS Fife messed this up big time for them both.

If someone makes a harassment claim to an employment tribunal, the judge would consider whether a 'typical' person would see the behaviour as harassment.

I am not sure "typical people" take detailed notes about colleagues from first meeting or if they do I didn't get that memo. It gives me the sense of someone who is hypervigilant and much more sensitive than the average person. Humans upset each other all the time - it is relatively unusual to launch a harrassment claim against a colleague so the threshold for whether it is harrassment has to be quite high. In the context of SP's protected characteristics the non acceptance and referring to Dr U is not unreasonable to the typical woman.

So based on today's evidence it possibly hinges on whether the Judge believes she did ask about chromosomes. And then further whether that was derogatory - maybe it would be from a member of the general public but maybe not so much for a nurse? I don't know - this is scrambling my brain. I wonder how the Judge sees it.

Thank you so much for this summary.😁

KnottyAuty · 06/02/2025 17:34

CheekySnake · 06/02/2025 14:25

In other words, he knows that if the women catch him looking at them in a state of undress, they'll have grounds for a potentially very damaging complaint that the hospital would have to take seriously because it could be a criminal offence, so he's very careful to make sure he's not caught looking.

It has also just occurred to me that there's a big difference between not giving the impression that you're looking, and not looking.

Edited

Just looking over today's posts and this caught my eye.
Don't many women do what Dr U is saying he does in a CR? I know I do - and I have never thought it to be sad. Obviously I don't feel like the "other" in this context so I am not so worried about how I might be perceived or feel concerned I will be rejected. But most women do avert their gaze from others in a CR - do men do something different typically?

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