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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #4

1000 replies

nauticant · 06/02/2025 11:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

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Thread gallery
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Madcats · 06/02/2025 16:42

I suspect that Naomi is busy phrasing her "Had Beth been here I would have asked..." as we pontificate.

nauticant · 06/02/2025 16:42

Having read the thread (thanks inky)Du has the thinnest of evidence to back up that he was harassed at all.

The main evidence, which is significant and will be hard for Peggie to overcome, is the report from the internal NHS investigation in Upton's favour.

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RoyalCorgi · 06/02/2025 16:43

RobinEllacotStrike · 06/02/2025 16:39

we can't look at men.
we can't not look at men.
we can't be in changing rooms.
we can't leave changing rooms.
we can't make eye contact.
we can't avoid eye contact.

All we can do so as not to offen the trans identified men is shut up & put up.

All evidenced by DU's testimony this afternoon.

This is perfectly put, and is an excellent illustration of Victoria Smith's article the other day about how women are damned whatever they do.

JasmineAllen · 06/02/2025 16:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bannedontherun · 06/02/2025 16:43

Hi @ickky would you mind posting all the sessions tomorrow as i am out all day and would love to see the transcripts. I am not on twitter

Thanks in anticipation.

nauticant · 06/02/2025 16:44

Did you know you can find them here Bannedontherun:

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr

You scroll down to the section headed Live Tweet Threads.

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Bannedontherun · 06/02/2025 16:47

nauticant · 06/02/2025 16:44

Did you know you can find them here Bannedontherun:

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr

You scroll down to the section headed Live Tweet Threads.

Edited

Well i tried and can never seem to get past the session after not before so will this page you have shared populate tomorrow thank

guinnessguzzler · 06/02/2025 16:48

It is disgraceful but absolutely fascinating in a grim way too. Agree completely with those saying this person isn't cut out for medicine and, in fact, I suspect would struggle in almost any workplace. I would guess after this Dr U's career will be over but there will be no insight at all into why; it will all be the mean lady nurse's fault. That makes a convenient excuse for failure, which makes it even more interesting that Dr U was clearly on high alert for anything reportable; looking for a fight and to champion the cause, or subconsciously looking for a way out?

From what I gather reading the comments from today, Dr U objects to Nurse Peggie saying he is a man but she only said that because he forced his way in and then pushed her to say what the problem was. It reminds me of a guy who asked me out, pushed for a reason when I said no, and then didn't appreciate the feedback! Literally no self-awareness, which is definitely not good healthcare, or frankly most workplace, material.

nauticant · 06/02/2025 16:48

Yeah, sometimes links will work for one's person's machine and not for another's.

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Taytoface · 06/02/2025 16:49

Were the cast of thousands in the background ever explained?

ConstructionTime · 06/02/2025 16:50

Mayaisashero · 06/02/2025 14:13

As well as his obsession with making women comply with his demands for subservience and 'eye contact'. Ye gods.

My personal opinion from this testimony is that he is a danger to patients. How can he possibly be patient focused when he's this obsessed about minor transgressions - so she spoke to another colleague instead of him. So fucking what?

Someone speculated about autism - the group of people who usually (with exceptions) do not like eye contact and wouldn't insist others look them in the eye.
I'm not happy about autism often being connected to people who try to bully others.

Redshoeblueshoe · 06/02/2025 16:50

Oh I am sure Dr U is already busy lining himself up a job at the BBC.

WearyAuldWumman · 06/02/2025 16:50

KnottyAuty · 06/02/2025 14:51

"With the assistance of my wife I wrote an email" saying to meet and discuss what would happen next 3.17am 25th Dec

Edited

Fuck...He's a grown man with a medical degree. Can he not write an email by himself?

Skyellaskerry · 06/02/2025 16:52

Another thank you @nauticant @Boiledbeetle and absolutely everyone else for your posts!

I tried to get in earlier, blank black screen. Tried on chrome no joy. This was as 0bserver. When I clicked the other option people have mentioned I was asked about access to camera and saw my face and wasn’t comfortable pressing connect! Any ideas where I’m going wrong? I’d love to listen in tomorrow.

larklane17 · 06/02/2025 16:52

I wonder if Dr. U is gearing up to take his own E.T. case against Fife?
Especially if he throws a sickie tomorrow.
'Cos yanno transphobia and failure to protect him from the nasty wims and social media.

JasmineAllen · 06/02/2025 16:53

guinnessguzzler · 06/02/2025 16:48

It is disgraceful but absolutely fascinating in a grim way too. Agree completely with those saying this person isn't cut out for medicine and, in fact, I suspect would struggle in almost any workplace. I would guess after this Dr U's career will be over but there will be no insight at all into why; it will all be the mean lady nurse's fault. That makes a convenient excuse for failure, which makes it even more interesting that Dr U was clearly on high alert for anything reportable; looking for a fight and to champion the cause, or subconsciously looking for a way out?

From what I gather reading the comments from today, Dr U objects to Nurse Peggie saying he is a man but she only said that because he forced his way in and then pushed her to say what the problem was. It reminds me of a guy who asked me out, pushed for a reason when I said no, and then didn't appreciate the feedback! Literally no self-awareness, which is definitely not good healthcare, or frankly most workplace, material.

I have wondered if his seniors and the BMA knew this was how it would play out and thought by letting him take this as far as court it would be a good way to stop him practising as a Dr.
It's probably a lot easier to let him do it to himself (in public) than to try and get him removed any other way.

WearyAuldWumman · 06/02/2025 16:54

RoamingGnome · 06/02/2025 14:55

I'd say the consultant walked Dr U to his car to make sure he left the premises.

Agreed.

The day after my dad died at the Vic, I had to go back for his death cert and complained when I saw that a doctor had signed him off as DNR without informing me. (Dad's name was on the whiteboard in the office. I had POA for him, so should have been informed.)

A nurse walked me out of the ward, accompanied me in the lift and all the way to the door, to make sure I didn't kick off in front of other relatives, etc. Ostensibly, she was accompanying a bereaved woman as an act of kindness. Nope.

myplace · 06/02/2025 16:56

RoyalCorgi · 06/02/2025 16:43

This is perfectly put, and is an excellent illustration of Victoria Smith's article the other day about how women are damned whatever they do.

For some reason @RobinEllacotStrike list reminds me of an inverse of the abuser’s charter.

I didn’t do it, if I did I didn’t mean to…

nauticant · 06/02/2025 16:56

Skyellaskerry: If you go in as Video and Audio rather than Observer, you do have to start by allowing access to your camera, but then, as soon as you join, moving the cursor on a laptop, or maybe swiping a screenbut, but I've not checked this, will bring up some icons including one to disable your camera.

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RobinEllacotStrike · 06/02/2025 16:57

RoyalCorgi · 06/02/2025 16:43

This is perfectly put, and is an excellent illustration of Victoria Smith's article the other day about how women are damned whatever they do.

I've just ordered the clever & articulate Victoria Smiths new book out today - "(Un)kind: How 'Be Kind' Entrenches Sexism"

She has an incredible way with words and does an excellent tweet.

Signalbox · 06/02/2025 16:58

Just been at work and catching up with TT. I’m left in no doubt that this guy is a full on TRA rather than a naive, hapless, trans person. This is pure fantasy…

DU - in front of men. Bad experience with men. I sympathised and she cut me off saying you don't, if you did you wouldn't be changing in here.

JR - why did you say you understood/sympathised.

DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny

DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience

ThatPithySheep · 06/02/2025 16:58

@Skyellaskerry On my Chrome browser I need to allow the use of the webcam until I get through to the holding screen and then I can switch it off. It won't let me connect if I don't keep the cam on

KnottyAuty · 06/02/2025 16:59

chilling19 · 06/02/2025 15:40

I am failing to see where the bullying happened.

Quite - the events prior to Xmas eve (not being friendly; asking Dr to do observations with a time-pressured case; not making eye contact while speaking to a colleague/potentially ignoring) could add up to signs of a strained relationship but its hardly hateful. It comes down to the event on Xmas Eve and what was discussed.

DrU confirmed that SP had mentioned men in women's prisons and had not directly said Dr U was like the Isla ? case which if referred to directly would have implied Dr U was potentially a rapist. For that SP would be on shaky ground but as she didn't actually say those words or mention Isla ? by name, it is circumstantial at best. It is a fact that in Scotland TW are not to be placed in women's prisons and while Dr U might not like it, that is the situation. So for me this doesn't meet a standard of hate speech. Nor did the other items mentioned which I didn't manage to get full notes on.

Dr U referred to SP calling them a man/male and how they considered this to be an insult in the context of the CR. However again given that it is meant to be a female only space and the pre-trial hearing docs comfirm that Dr U is at the self ID phase of transition (no surgery) then they are currently more biologically male than female. How could SP have used any other language to explain this? I don't think it is fair to assume this is an insult as what other words could have been used to describe her discomfort and embarrassment - albeit by her using them she caused Dr U similar feelings.

If SP asked about Dr U's chromosomes then that is a personal and intrusive question. It is a "he said she said" situation. I imagine if this was said it followed on from Dr U saying something like "I am a woman". It was maybe misguided but again having been told by the E&D team to take it up with Dr U herself what language would be appropriate here? I am not sure how I could navigate this convo myself (while also wanting to deal with a menopausal flood in full flow - which is frankly horrible when it happens away from home).

When talking about the bullying policy JR asked Dr U to confirm how Sp's actions had met the criteria. They said she demonstrated "non acceptance" of their EA protected characteristic and this was a "deliberate behaviour". That it was the CR convo on the 24th that was a "hate incident" even though SP's behaviour overall "can't be described as consistent".

I was under the impression that problem behaviour had to be a consistent to be considered bullying. On the other hand Harrassment can be a one off incident of "unwanted behaviour" related to a protected characteristicr which:

  • violated the person's dignity
  • created an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for the person

So it seems that SP was suspended for saying Dr U should not be in the CR against hospital policy, for "non acceptance" of Dr U as a woman and for allegedly asking about chromosomes and creating a hostile environment - constituting harrassment (allegedly).

SP also alleges harrassment as Dr U used the women's CR when she was there 3 times which she alleges created an intimidating environment such that she felt that she had to remove herself from the CR on 2 occasions. She then followed D&I advice to speak to Dr U on the 3rd - which as we might expect was really bad advice and didn't go well

I get both points of view. NHS Fife messed this up big time for them both.

If someone makes a harassment claim to an employment tribunal, the judge would consider whether a 'typical' person would see the behaviour as harassment.

I am not sure "typical people" take detailed notes about colleagues from first meeting or if they do I didn't get that memo. It gives me the sense of someone who is hypervigilant and much more sensitive than the average person. Humans upset each other all the time - it is relatively unusual to launch a harrassment claim against a colleague so the threshold for whether it is harrassment has to be quite high. In the context of SP's protected characteristics the non acceptance and referring to Dr U is not unreasonable to the typical woman.

So based on today's evidence it possibly hinges on whether the Judge believes she did ask about chromosomes. And then further whether that was derogatory - maybe it would be from a member of the general public but maybe not so much for a nurse? I don't know - this is scrambling my brain. I wonder how the Judge sees it.

Mmmnotsure · 06/02/2025 16:59

Skyellaskerry · 06/02/2025 16:52

Another thank you @nauticant @Boiledbeetle and absolutely everyone else for your posts!

I tried to get in earlier, blank black screen. Tried on chrome no joy. This was as 0bserver. When I clicked the other option people have mentioned I was asked about access to camera and saw my face and wasn’t comfortable pressing connect! Any ideas where I’m going wrong? I’d love to listen in tomorrow.

High tech here. When I see my face in that first little box, that's when the blu tack comes out for over the computer camera, so I don't have to worry any longer.

Then, when you get into the hearing, you can scroll down to the bottom of the page and click the icons for camera and sound off.

I keep the blu tack on just in case. Then I forget and close the laptop and have to unstick it.

Shortshriftandlethal · 06/02/2025 17:01

Lots of reports and deletions today........take care tomorrow not to over-step with the commentary.

This fragility and mental instability that has arisen as a result of 24 hours a day social media; living anonymous on-line lives in which you can be whoever you want to be, and unable to cope with alternative perspectives, let alone biological reality, is very concerning. So many young people are unable to cope with life's harsher realities, or with assuming adult responsibility - yet they are being lionised and held up as exemplars.

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