Telegraph: "Exclusive: Boxing to introduce new transgender category"

[ResisterRex]

Seems no one is up for mixed-sex boxing. Whoever would've guessed?!

It would be amusing to watch Stonewall et al denounce this as "exclusionary" and "transphobic" but presumably they'd be well-advised to sit this one out.

www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2022/12/29/exclusive-boxing-introduce-new-transgender-category/

"Boxing will put out a call for transgender athletes to come forward in 2023 with the World Boxing Council looking to introduce a new category solely for trans fighters.

Mauricio Sulaiman, the president of the WBC, believes the sport needs to look closely at the issue for “safety and inclusion” reasons, revealing his plan to Telegraph Sport.
In an exclusive interview, Sulaiman says his proposal is that:
The WBC will next year issue a “global call” for trans athletes to come forward if they want to compete, with the aim of setting up their own separate league or tournament
Trans athletes will not be allowed to compete against non-trans fighters
The sport would look to adopt the “at birth” rule, meaning a trans fighter born a man would only be able to compete against a fellow trans fighter born a man"

Show me the science that (a) means exclusion of trans men is legitimate and that (b) means exclusion of trans women who have not been thru male puberty is legitimate.

A) how are they excluded if the proposal is for a category JUST FOR THEM? Or does the word 'excludes' mean something else in your world? B) on what planet is it ethical that adults fight children in the boxing ring?

East Germany were just really progressive and on the right side of history in the 80's

Who knew 🤷‍♀️

Don't let's forget that males on puberty blockers have a height advantage on average over females too.

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

Trans girls grow tall: adult height is unaffected by GnRH analogue and estradiol treatment

Lidewij Sophia Boogers,
Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink,
Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

How about that until some definitive and robust research comes in, that NO males are included in the female category. why? Because the female category seems to have been used as an experiment zone for males with DSDs/VSDs and males with gender identities for too long.

Maybe, the onus should be fucking taken on by males to prove without a fucking doubt that females will not be disadvantaged by any male included in the female sporting category.

In the meantime, EvilBee have at it with all those links you seem to imply that you have to educate us with.

OK EvilBee. You're right. All your pigeon chess has got me. I'm convinced. Now here's an idea. Forget rainbow laces...

RAINBOW GLOVES

Who's with me? I wanna see Stonewall selling rainbow gloves and telling the world how males should be allowed to punch females so they can live their best life.

I'm thinking male MPs in the gloves, knocking seven shades of shit out of their female contemporaries.

BECAUSE INCLUSION

🤪

And they can start with NICOLA

Skerrick! Fabulous new word.

Basically, yeah. My first thought on seeing the title of the thread was that they need two categories to be fair to female fighters if they are going to pander to this identity nonsense.

I've just looked up 'pigeon chess' and, honestly, @ResisterRex, you've made my day. That's beyond apt for the TRAs and 100% brilliant.

”Skerrick! Fabulous new word.”

OOh! Did I do it again?

I should spruik about it, or at least skite!!

Thanks, I've just signed the petition 💜

It'll be interesting to see how many elite male athletes identify as transwomen (but not really) just for a shot at a medal in that category. I mean it's all about feelings so what would disqualify them?

Ditto elite women having a crack at the transmen category.

I suppose they'll fix that by making sure they can only compete in one category. But that would exclude those who alternate between girl-mode and boy-mode on any given day (much like Eddie Izzard) so that's discriminatory as well 😉

Elite men and women who are outside a shot at a medal in the regular men's and women's categories might decide it's worth pursuing a medal in the (easier, less competitive) trans categories.

I can't see that going down well if 'not real transwomen!' (elite men in this example) are allowed to compete in (identify into) the transwomen category. Goes both ways eh, people identifying into your supposedly-protected category.

This research says males and females are not the same pre-puberty.

Glad we've put that to bed. Now men can stay out of women's sports regardless of whether they've completed male puberty

bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13293-015-0022-1

bigbabycooker, yes, and I always thought it exactly correct that the blades were tested for advantage.

Now the work of testing has been done, runners with blades have the choice to run in a restricted category, or the more open category, safe in the knowledge they are not being unfairly advantaged by their artificial assistance.

I'm not a sportperson but I am a wheelchair user. I've a tolerably good handle on the ways that equitable access often requires me to be treated as in a different category, using a different entrance, with different amount of staff input. Because, my needs are different. If someone treats me as though I'm identical to a non-wheelchair user, they will fail to meet my needs – and THAT'S when they will have failed to give me equitable access.

Incidentally, while you are compiling all that evidence about whether puberty blocked males have no advantage at all over adult females, could you give us the criteria that these males will need to satisfy to prove they have had NO other advantages at all?

How will one puberty blocked male be assessed against another? Considering puberty starts at different ages.

How will this be equal and fair not discriminatory to some puberty blocked male?

What about bone density for puberty blocked males? And leverage points with the male skeleton despite puberty blockers?

'Tis a legit point though: what'll be their criteria to allow access to those category? What makes a trans person a trans person?

I thought it was self-identification? I thought the LGBT Foundation said the magical umbrella term included cross-dressers?

If they ask Nicola, 'spose it'll just be 3 months worth of gas bills...

Once I would have thought that this would have woken the world to the craziness we are facing. Sadly now, I think there may well be establishment figures who would embrace it.

Thanks for that article - I'll actually keep it for the bit about bone growth following puberty blockers, y'know something people seem to 'forget' happens when someone has been on blockers.

it's interesting that happens with height as that doesn't happen with pelvic growth, but given that height is a definite advantage in boxing, that would at least be something, but enough to discriminate?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8247856/

However, again you're ignoring trans men who, if the EA covered sports authorities, would have a cast iron case for discrimination in the courts

Also, shit on trans people as much as you like, it's the forum for it, but calling intersex women 'males'..like really? CAIS women are phenotypically female and have been since the day they were born.

Muffy and glad to hear you found the petition, Gareth!!

But obviously now my focus is on 🌈 🥊

>It's completely unfair on transmen to insist they only compete against biological males who have gone through male puberty.

Trans men want to compete in men's sports..jesus, like you don't understand trans people at all.

One more! Only 10,000's to go before, at best, you get a debate with a load of MPs being supportive to trans ppl. You go Rex!

Be polite bee like you said be polite in other people's spaces.

OK NRTFT so maybe this has been covered already.

This move to make new categories seems completely sensible and a good way forward. The boxing authorities are being absolutely fair for those who need their gender identity preferences (or perhaps their physical status, if say, they didn’t go through puberty due to puberty blockers) to be shared with their sporting opponents. Fine.

The main thing is that single sex sports categories for women (however they identify their gender ID) can be protected in future.

However. I wonder how they will be able to be able to enforce the categories if someone with a GRC were to say that they didn’t want to use the trans peoples categories? How could they stop someone who is of opposite sex (but who is legally of the same sex) from joining a category if that’s what they wanted to do?

Legally a GRC holder is of the sex that the GRC says. Having a GRC seems to be in official terms, a secret. So presumably it couldn’t be something that the boxing authorities could legally ask to see on the day, if there was a dispute about categories. So it seems like a problem that could be very hard to resolve in practice. This petition thread talks in more detail about the problems with GRCs.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4688427-repeal-the-gra?page=1

Why is it that the Third category being added to marathons such as the Chicago Marathon is inclusive, in a sport where the question is just fairness rather than safety... but exclusionary in Contact sports?

Why do you feel the need to be so rude?

Trans men want to compete in men's sports..jesus, like you don't understand trans people at all.

Like you don’t understand the notion of fair competition in sport, do you mean?