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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph: "Exclusive: Boxing to introduce new transgender category"

223 replies

ResisterRex · 29/12/2022 17:40

Seems no one is up for mixed-sex boxing. Whoever would've guessed?!

It would be amusing to watch Stonewall et al denounce this as "exclusionary" and "transphobic" but presumably they'd be well-advised to sit this one out.

www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2022/12/29/exclusive-boxing-introduce-new-transgender-category/

"Boxing will put out a call for transgender athletes to come forward in 2023 with the World Boxing Council looking to introduce a new category solely for trans fighters.

Mauricio Sulaiman, the president of the WBC, believes the sport needs to look closely at the issue for “safety and inclusion” reasons, revealing his plan to Telegraph Sport.
In an exclusive interview, Sulaiman says his proposal is that:
The WBC will next year issue a “global call” for trans athletes to come forward if they want to compete, with the aim of setting up their own separate league or tournament
Trans athletes will not be allowed to compete against non-trans fighters
The sport would look to adopt the “at birth” rule, meaning a trans fighter born a man would only be able to compete against a fellow trans fighter born a man"

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 29/12/2022 21:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Getting tired of reminding you be polite in other peoples spaces. Your exact demand to us yesterday. So do the same or do one mate.

PerkingFaintly · 29/12/2022 21:20

You want to add a completely Open category to all non-contact sports, you crack on, EvilBee.

Just as long as it's not at the expense of tailored categories that give more than the same three people the chance of winning every single one.

Boiledbeetle · 29/12/2022 21:20

straight transwoman, Can someone translate into old money for me

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 29/12/2022 21:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 29/12/2022 21:22

Please ignore…that should be bet male and its not meant for this thread

will report

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 21:22

Boiledbeetle · 29/12/2022 21:09

Be polite bee like you said be polite in other people's spaces.

I mean, I've already been called a rape apologist, my competence at my job questioned (which I'm a specialist in lol) and no doubt been misgendered a zillion times..which, I would count as not being very polite, but I will take your point.

I should mention that it's specific to that area as they will ban as soon as you start talking about 'fe/males with gender identities' or whatever thing you're calling us to avoid the fact that transsexual men and women exist.

ResisterRex · 29/12/2022 21:23

Don't go Evil!! The plan is getting started.----

Which MPs should we match up? And what about celebs? I reckon we need some of those, too.

Ooh I know!!! Maybe Children In Need could channel Gendered Intelligence and have an 8-25 group with mixed age fighting???

OP posts:
RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 29/12/2022 21:25

Though i see it makes a kinda sense in the context of this thread

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 21:27

PerkingFaintly · 29/12/2022 21:20

You want to add a completely Open category to all non-contact sports, you crack on, EvilBee.

Just as long as it's not at the expense of tailored categories that give more than the same three people the chance of winning every single one.

At no point did I say that.

Though if you want trans men winning all the time, then please prevent them from competing in the men's category as they wish to.

tilder · 29/12/2022 21:32

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 19:16

I don't

I think trans men should be able to box against men and trans women who haven't been thru male puberty should be able to box against women.

I also think they should provide evidence that trans women are more of a risk in that sport, y'know, that science thing.

Personally I think the science is pretty clear. Boxing should only take place in single sex categories. Lots of evidence of male physical advantage. Not sure testing it out in boxing matches (to gather empirical data) would be ethical.

I'm assuming here you are referring to somebody who had been on puberty blockers followed by cross sex hormones. Being exempt from the single sex boxing rule.

Wouldn't that make a two tier for trans people? Everyone is trans but some are more so? Isnt that rather transphobic?

PerkingFaintly · 29/12/2022 21:35

But, I did say that. (Newsflash: other people are allowed to say things, not just you.)

In non-contact sports, it's reasonable to have an entirely Open category. Transmen can then compete against men, and against transwomen, and against women, and against non-binary people, etc etc (we're told there are dozens of genders, how else are you going to fit them in?).

Unless people are looking for validation rather than participation, an Open category meets this fine.

Boiledbeetle · 29/12/2022 21:37

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 21:22

I mean, I've already been called a rape apologist, my competence at my job questioned (which I'm a specialist in lol) and no doubt been misgendered a zillion times..which, I would count as not being very polite, but I will take your point.

I should mention that it's specific to that area as they will ban as soon as you start talking about 'fe/males with gender identities' or whatever thing you're calling us to avoid the fact that transsexual men and women exist.

Doesn't matter repeat and follow the mantra you demand from us in your spaces

BE POLITE
BE POLITE
BE POLITE
BE POLITE

Boiledbeetle · 29/12/2022 21:39

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 29/12/2022 21:25

Though i see it makes a kinda sense in the context of this thread

😁

Rainbowshit · 29/12/2022 21:40

It seems to me @EvilBee that you are not interested in a fair or safe playing field for transmen but are more interested in the validation of competing against males. Yet you bang on about the scientific evidence? 🤔

Again can you post your evidence that transwomen who have not gone through male puberty have no advantage over females please?

Namenic · 29/12/2022 21:47

having more categories is positive. The nature of sport is arbitrary - boxing has more finely delineated categories than rowing. For sports with age categories - what counts as ‘sufficiently different’ - 1, 2, 5 years? It is different in different sports. I believe Paralympic sport also has different categories.

But people want to see safe, fair and competitive sport. I think more categories are a far better way of achieving this than just having male and female. If necessary, create an additional one for trans people who have been on hormone blockers for longer and have not undergone puberty of their birth sex.

littlbrowndog · 29/12/2022 21:54

No one will watch the sports where ther3 are more categories. Where will the money come from

as for children who have not gone through puberty due to blockers. This is truly truly terrible. Sport. Not sport. Can’t believe you said that namenic

what are they. Stunted children for ever

Namenic · 29/12/2022 22:03

Statistically there is a small difference in growth curves pre-puberty. This starts at birth - hence different boys and girls growth charts (WHO) and different birth weight distributions.

My guess is also that if you took sports results of children under 7, there would be a statistical difference in performance between males and females. My guess is that not all of this is physical - some of it may be due to social encouragement for boys to do more sport. BUT in some sports (eg women’s driving, chess or snooker or darts competitions) it may also be positive to develop talent where women are under-represented. So having more categories is not a bad thing even if some people consider the difference is ‘insignificant’.

CuriousEats · 29/12/2022 22:17

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 19:16

I don't

I think trans men should be able to box against men and trans women who haven't been thru male puberty should be able to box against women.

I also think they should provide evidence that trans women are more of a risk in that sport, y'know, that science thing.

So you don't think males should compete against females. But you still want more evidence about how transwomen are a risk to actual proper women?
I cant see why you need this info as you agree anyway, but try looking up Fallon Fox and his disgusting comments after the fight
“For the record, I knocked two out. One woman’s skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It’s bliss! Don’t be mad”

What a lovely person.

CuriousEats · 29/12/2022 22:18

No violence to see here, none at all.

BUT DONT YOU USE YOUR HURTY WORDS ON ME!!! THESE FISTS DONT DISCRIMINATE BLAH BLAH

Namenic · 29/12/2022 22:19

@littlbrowndog - I think a lot of it is about media coverage. I think I watched more Paralympic sport because at the commonwealth games, the matches were scheduled together. I was amazed at the times of the Paralympic swimmers (as I used to swim competitively as a kid) and how agile the wheelchair basketball players were.

I think the decision about puberty blockers and hormones for gender dysphoria should be made very carefully with multiple medical professionals. I don’t agree with just affirming, but I don’t agree with banning it either - and certainly people should be aware that we don’t know all the long term effects.

Boiledbeetle · 29/12/2022 22:21

CuriousEats · 29/12/2022 22:18

No violence to see here, none at all.

BUT DONT YOU USE YOUR HURTY WORDS ON ME!!! THESE FISTS DONT DISCRIMINATE BLAH BLAH

Loving your work!

Boiledbeetle · 29/12/2022 22:25

You know can I just take this opportunity to say tho those of you who are mothers...Well done.

Following Bee around this evening having to constantly remind them about their manners and to be polite.

God! So glad I don't have kids. No wonder mother's always look exhausted

Helleofabore · 29/12/2022 23:19

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 20:57

Thanks for that article - I'll actually keep it for the bit about bone growth following puberty blockers, y'know something people seem to 'forget' happens when someone has been on blockers.

it's interesting that happens with height as that doesn't happen with pelvic growth, but given that height is a definite advantage in boxing, that would at least be something, but enough to discriminate?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8247856/

However, again you're ignoring trans men who, if the EA covered sports authorities, would have a cast iron case for discrimination in the courts

Also, shit on trans people as much as you like, it's the forum for it, but calling intersex women 'males'..like really? CAIS women are phenotypically female and have been since the day they were born.

What even does ”y'know something people seem to 'forget' happens when someone has been on blockers.” mean? Who forgets what?

You are on a parenting forum and more than a few of us have read widely on the topic of puberty blockers. But always happy to learn more. So, out with it… who forgets what?

”but enough to discriminate?”

Considering you have offered little else bar this, (or have I missed all that wonderful science you keep promising? ), I predict you have nothing. No evidence at all that even puberty blocked males have no ‘advantage’ over the female competitors in sports.

Good to know. You have nothing. Nothing at all other than that emotional manipulation I keep mentioning. And to be fair, I think by now readers have seen your posts across these threads and recognise your tactics.

”However, again you're ignoring trans men who, if the EA covered sports authorities, would have a cast iron case for discrimination in the courts”

How? What basis will these court cases have? In boxing? In any contact sport?

What are female trans people aiming for? Do you think sporting clubs will be getting insurance for females with their greater susceptibility to concussive injuries and lasting damage in the near future considering all the concussive discussions happening in different sports? Do you honestly think insurance companies will even accept a signed waiver considering what is becoming known?

I don’t seem to be the poster ‘ignoring’ females at all… you seem to be continuing to dishonestly post . That is ok, I and others will simply continue to scrutinize your lack of engagement beyond that dishonesty. We have patience. We have done this many times before.

Also, shit on trans people as much as you like, it's the forum for it,

Please read the talk guidelines. You are also now repeatedly posting negative generalisations about MN FWR posters. Please stop. We are here, we have been engaging with you since you announced yourself.

but calling intersex women 'males'..like really? CAIS women are phenotypically female and have been since the day they were born.

Maybe you haven’t been listening all that much to people with differences of sex development. We have not only had female trans people regulars, but also people with these differences who have asked that ‘intersex’ stopped being used to describe their medical conditions.

You really seem to be behind the times despite what you think.

I doubt any person with CAIS is under any illusion as to their sex. Now, there is moves to change the guidelines for some
sports to reflect the bodies use of androgens. This will exclude those people with CAIS. However, it doesn’t mean that males who start puberty blockers before puberty should be allowed access to female sporting categories until more research had been done.

But… way to attempt to politicise people with medical conditions to support your rather empty arguments.

I mentioned it because it was pertinent. You mentioned it as some kind of sick ‘gotcha’. Well done!

howmanybicycles · 29/12/2022 23:22

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 21:22

I mean, I've already been called a rape apologist, my competence at my job questioned (which I'm a specialist in lol) and no doubt been misgendered a zillion times..which, I would count as not being very polite, but I will take your point.

I should mention that it's specific to that area as they will ban as soon as you start talking about 'fe/males with gender identities' or whatever thing you're calling us to avoid the fact that transsexual men and women exist.

Absolute piffle to suggest anyone is saying transexual men and women don't exist. But being transexual does not turn a man into a woman. A male who is transexual is a trans woman not a woman. Still exists though. This particular 'denying existence' arguments strikes me as one or the most ridiculous in an ocean of hyperbolic nonsense.

IneedanewTV · 29/12/2022 23:31

JoodyBlue · 29/12/2022 20:03

There should NEVER be a category for boys who haven't gone through puberty. Reading that outloud really brings home what the hell we are talking about. It is dark ages stuff trying to pretend to be progressive. Sometimes I don't believe what I'm reading.

I agree. It sounds like something from the Middle Ages where boys were kept as boys for nebulous reasons.

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