Telegraph: "Exclusive: Boxing to introduce new transgender category"

[ResisterRex]

Seems no one is up for mixed-sex boxing. Whoever would've guessed?!

It would be amusing to watch Stonewall et al denounce this as "exclusionary" and "transphobic" but presumably they'd be well-advised to sit this one out.

www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2022/12/29/exclusive-boxing-introduce-new-transgender-category/

"Boxing will put out a call for transgender athletes to come forward in 2023 with the World Boxing Council looking to introduce a new category solely for trans fighters.

Mauricio Sulaiman, the president of the WBC, believes the sport needs to look closely at the issue for “safety and inclusion” reasons, revealing his plan to Telegraph Sport.
In an exclusive interview, Sulaiman says his proposal is that:
The WBC will next year issue a “global call” for trans athletes to come forward if they want to compete, with the aim of setting up their own separate league or tournament
Trans athletes will not be allowed to compete against non-trans fighters
The sport would look to adopt the “at birth” rule, meaning a trans fighter born a man would only be able to compete against a fellow trans fighter born a man"

Plus I don't suppose testosterone makes a woman's hands grow bigger or make their wrists wider. I've got big hands for a woman but My DP's hands are huge, his fists are like Mallets. His wrists are about 2 cm wider than mine. That sort of development happens during puberty.

When it comes down to it, no one really thinks it is fair or safe for people to compete in the opposite sports category. What the boxing situation shows, though, is that men's feelings are always placed above women's.

TW wants to compete against women: their need for validation is considered more important than the safety, fairness or wishes of women. They are allowed to compete and the attitude is, we'll allow this until we have incontrovertible evidence that it's not safe. Women get it in the neck for being mean and bigoted if they disagree.

TM wants to compete against men: their need for validation is considered less important than their safety, fairness and the wishes of men. They are not allowed to compete and the attitude is, we will not allow this until we have incontrovertible evidence that it is safe. Men get praised for being caring and not wanting anyone to come to harm.

Have we discussed those females not on T and the effect of their menstrual cycle?

something that males who discuss the inclusion of females into a male category don’t understand the safety aspect of?

I believe there are some very interesting future studies coming through. How ever there already is recognition about being injury prone even if menstruation is suppressed.

So even a female without T treatment vs female with T treatment need to be considered very differently for injury risk assessment (and insurance) .

Obviously, males focused on the inclusion of puberty suppressed males into the female category never seem to understand that aspect of advantage either.

Of course, I am not talking about ‘simulated’ periods as we have seen on social media. Because not only are they not periods, they could be done without.

sure, but the East German lady shot putters etc were much shorter and overall smaller than their male counterparts. I wonder if they might have been able to match the men within a narrowly prescribed weight class, per

• per boxing.

It still wouldn’t be fair. If you have two athletes:

a) a male whose body has been adulterated with oestrogen and
b) a female whose body had been adulterated with testosterone

and they were matched to be in the same weight class, the male would still have the advantage of:

1. skeletal structure with greater reach and shoulder width
2. larger hands
3. more myonuclei, which gives males muscle memory to be recruited with training enabling greater punch velocity, an advantage regardless of how much muscle the female could gain with testosterone

The male would be able to punch harder and faster from a greater distance. It would not be fair.

No. I’m assuming that the East German’s took their best female shot putters and then doped them. If larger taller women did better at shot put don’t you think they would already dominate that sport? The female ideal body shape for shot put will be (on average) smaller than the male ideal body shape. So taking a larger / taller than average woman and doping them with testosterone is highly unlikely to create an equivalent of an elite male in the same weight class. It’s just not going to happen. And If it was possible we would already be seeing elite women (who take testosterone) crossing over into the male category wouldn’t we? Trans men are non-existent in elite male sports.

shot put is dominated by huge people, both the men's and women's world record are held by competitors are held by a competitor who's around 3 standard deviations above the mean height for their sex - the women's record holder is 6'2", the men's record holder is 6'7". no amount of doping would be enough to compensate for the extreme global lack of athletic women who are 6'7".

And supposing that a match goes ahead without serious injury, who would think that the inevitable male victory was worth anything, and apart from people who want to watch women getting battered, who would want to watch a match where the outcome was a foregone conclusion?

Dear gods do you have to keep on banging on about how gender ideology, being trans, can be harmful to women in so many ways?

Can you not just accept that we are only women, not independent human lifeforms?

FFS. Just stop with the bloody logic!

No. They wouldn't. This is something every 1st year sport science student gets to measure. All sorts of physical tests across the whole year group. They can directly compare results of any measure, height, sex, sport played, age etc.

Those results are the same year on year. I haven't taught in a few years and am going to go back in new year and ask if they are now being confounded by gender issues. This whole issue might actually have made me angry enough to overcome the anxiety issues that stopped me teaching in the first place.

FFS. Just stop with the bloody logic!

I know, right? The logic of the ethics is enough to make your head explode!!!!

While you are here samphire, being such a hip person as you are , just how close do you reckon a puberty blocked male’s pelvic and hip skeletal configuration changes to ‘resemble’ a female pelvis? Have you come across anything in your research on this topic about that?

When I read that post and link up thread, I immediately thought of your shakira posts!!!

If you don’t go through male puberty, how can you be a trans woman? Because you wouldn’t be transitioning from one thing to another, you would just be …..staying put.

Unless you are referring to people who have been allowed or encouraged or forced to take drugs to prevent puberty. I think that is fast becoming illegal in most civilised countries.

@EvilBee
oh and if you are referring to boys who have taken ‘puberty blockers’ I doubt they will be taking up boxing, because brittle bones and being hit quite hard are not a match.

I’m confused why you asked the question when you clearly already know the answer is no. Were you being ironic? (Irony tends to go over my head)

sure, but the East German lady shot putters etc were much shorter and overall smaller than their male counterparts. I wonder if they might have been able to match the men within a narrowly prescribed weight class

what I was suggesting is that, crudely, many (not all) of the male advantages in sport boil down to: (a) greater body mass; and (b) even for a given body mass, a different competition, i.e. (i) less fat; (ii) more muscle; (iii) more skeleton.

boxing's weight classes, which don't exist in shot putting etc, control for (a). a F->M transition, with surgery and the 'right' quantities of drugs, might go some way towards correcting for bi and bii (not biii, though this might possibly be offset by greater muscle mass?)

I suppose I was saying that a M->F trans might have been able to do ok in a hypothetical lightweight shot-put competition should such a thing exist, and similarly in lighter boxing weight classes.

exist

Mmm! Second link is a bit more reader friendly

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30792029/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2917783/

Basically there are structural differences, incl shape and bone density, from birth. Pubertal changes make those differences much more marked.

Yes, there are women with very 'masculine' Q angles and yes, there are some very board hipped men. But in adults the differences are visible to all.

An archaeologist faced with very young bones might not be able to sex them with certainty, but most would take an informed guess and be relatively confidence, or so I am told by a professor who has been doing just that for about 60 years.

Given that it is at puberty that female hips broaden, flatten, lose flexibility, ROM, etc a male on puberty blockers would have the opposite effect, leaving him even more slim hipped than a female. It will prevent bone density increase too, not a good thing. All in all PBs won't give males a more female body shape, quite the opposite.

Which has always made me wonder what tall tale is being sold to young kids who then start on them!

I suppose I was saying that a M->F trans might have been able to do ok in a hypothetical lightweight shot-put competition should such a thing exist, and similarly in lighter boxing weight classes.

Oh I see so a heavy weight woman might be competitive in the medium weight men’s category? I still think all the things that don’t change when a grown woman takes testosterone will mean they never reach the elite level (hand size, wrist width, arm length, upper body structure etc..) And aren’t trans men already entitled to compete against men. Don’t most elite sports have the therapeutic use exemption which allows females to use testosterone for transitioning purposes and still compete with men? If this levelled the playing field between males and females wouldn’t we already see trans men in men’s sporting categories?

Ok I've done a little bit of research. I cant find any transwomen sports people who have not been through male puberty.

You got any evidence they exist?

Thanks samphire. I did wonder as it really seemed to lack logic when viewed against what we know (me from reading your links in the past and what you have shared) about Q angles.

Either way, I assume that @EvilBee has stopped buzzing this board so they will not be any better informed than they were when they plopped in.

Kids are probably back at their mums and bee is down the actual pub playing pool with bee mate's

I too have thought for a while that the insurers might be the way through this one. Money matters more than misogyny.

EvilBee

To the sillies who want trans men boxing cisgender women, then go look up Mack Beggs..weirdly enough those sex hormones that you like to pretend do nothing mean that trans guys would have a definite advantage.

Nobody is saying anything of the sort. Unless you mean men taking female hormones, which does put the man at a slight disadvantage, when competing with other men.

Everyone has a good idea of the effects of testosterone on both sexes.