Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 5

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

I learnt about Support Humans on MN. I use it often. I am not a Support Human. Women are not Support Humans

Thanks @nauticant that makes sense

I sincerely hope that once this tribunal is over the fabulous BC will consider using the fantabulous AB as his junior in future cases about GC beliefs and women's rights. And if she doesn't already have one, I hope BC will give AB a red bag after this tribunal is over (she deserves one!!).

Another thank you to everyone for the posts and links, it's the only way I can keep up with what's been happening. It sounds as though Allison is doing really well.

If we want to observe do we just e-mail on the day?

Am disappointed I haven’t been able to watch this week, would really have liked to see Allison in action, she’s amazing from what I’ve been reading.

I may be able to attempt to view a couple of times next week. Do they give running order at the end of each day re witnesses for the next day? I definitely want to see if I can watch further SW witnesses.

You email as soon as possible IloveHolby because sometimes it can take a day or more to get your access email and sometimes it can arrive within an hour. The codes etc in the access email is for all of the days of the hearing, it's not a case if needing a new access email for each day.

The information about future witnesses comes out piecemeal Furries (the sensible reason given that had there been a timetable right from the start it could have increased the likelihood of witness harassment).

As things stand, tomorrow is mainly a day for GCC while Monday is about SW.

In fact the nicest men wouldn't dream of taking away women's single sex spaces - the mere idea of going into a women's toilet would appall them.

Remember the victim of Katie Dolatowski? Her Dad (clearly one of those decent men) waited outside while his daughter went to the loo. Had he known the toilets were de facto mixed sex, would he have done so?

What we have now is a situation where the only men who are allowed in women's spaces are those who don't think women have the right to say 'no', who don't respect women and who think their wants override women's needs .

And we don't have a right to give away other women's consent. Even if I'm fine with men in the ladies, I don't have the right to assume that every woman is - far from being inclusive I'd be excluding disabled women, women with PTSD after male violence, religious women and just simply young girls who are traumatised at the start of their periods and want a single sex space to deal with them.

Women have the right to say 'no'.

Another thank you for the comments on here as I can’t watch and it’s great to get everyone’s impressions of what’s happening.

I too have been very disappointed not to be able to watch much, damn work deadlines getting in the way. What I have witnessed from Allison was beyond impressive though, I have no idea how she is bearing up. It's interesting that on Twitter the TRAs are proclaiming how terrible she's been, that she's paranoid (think that's a nod to wispagate) and how she's represented herself badly. Apart from sounding as gaslighty as fuck, do you think any of them actually believe what they're saying or is it that they have genuine issues with comprehension? I'm genuinely not being goady when I ask this, I'm just struggling with how they could come to such conclusions when Allison has been returning serve against AH for days now and with tremendous class. I wouldn't have been able to be as polite as she's been and I'm not sure many could.

When is Ben due back on? I really need to try and shift some deadlines so I can get some more watching time in.

Oh and I'd also like to add that the decent transwomen also do not intrude into single sex spaces - transwomen like Miranda Yardley - because they genuinely do have empathy for those women who need single sex spaces.

This entitled behaviour that SW put across as 'trans inclusive' is not inclusive of transwomen like Miranda.

Great, thanks @nauticant

Pluvia has made "Glinner's Twitter" - not sure If I'm allowed to post a link, but

WELL DONE, THAT WUMMAN!

😁😁😁

BC will be cross-examining GCC witnesses tomorrow and SW witnesses on Monday Imnotavetbut. Obviously, things can change.

With regards to the TRA response on twitter I genuinely think they dont understand the concept of a prosecution and defence. They'll probably go very quiet when Ben Cooper gets in his stride.
And Allison is amazing. The sheer stamina to answer questions day after day. In total awe of her.

Quite.

In that cotton ceiling archived link, the TW bemoans that fact that lesbians don't want TW, or penis.

They are sore affronted by women saying no, although to be fair they do respect women as autonomous beings and accept that they have an absolute right to choose their own sexual partners and... Ah no. Sorry. No, they went the other way.

😡

do you think any of them actually believe what they're saying or is it that they have genuine issues with comprehension?

To borrow a good phrase from Jane Clare Jones, they are gaslighting themselves.

But I think in a lot of cases it’s a general lack of comprehension (combined with arrogance) which makes the autogaslighting easy to accomplish.

Also playing into it is that “splitting” mentality which won’t permit them to acknowledge their perceived enemies have any positive qualities or ever get anything right.

The whole 'cotton ceiling' mindset has a lot of similarities with the incel mindset.

Thanks nauticant. Tomorrow's out but Monday may be a possibility... I certainly don't want to log in to AH's posturing again. He makes me feel a bit queasy. I was on jury duty once and one QC was great, even in the cross, but the other was like AH and made me shudder, deeply unpleasant. It was a visceral reaction and I get exactly the same feeling about AH.

Yes Mollyollydolly, I am in awe too. I hope she does read on here to see just how much respect and support there is for her.

Allison held up well on what was a very tough day. Keep on keeping on Allison

Ha TastefulRainbowUnicorn! Gaslighting themselves seems very apt. Apologies for my lack of paragraphs, I swear I am putting them in but Mumsnet is not playing ball.

do you think any of them actually believe what they're saying or is it that they have genuine issues with comprehension?

Also, they have for so long proclaimed that anyone saying X, Y or Z must be evil, that when Allison says them calmly, rationally and with fair reasoning, they cannot see beyond "ZOMG!!! She's confessed to being the most evil witch of all! Transphobe! BIGOT!! PUPPY KILLER!!(@#!"

do you think any of them actually believe what they're saying or is it that they have genuine issues with comprehension?

"Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed." (C. S. Lewis, The Magician's Nephew, The Chronicles of Narnia)

Placemarking.
Thanks for the great discussion everyone.
Go Allison! We are all cheering you on and you are AWESOME.

Absolutely - I'd struggle to articulate exactly why Allison's performance today stood out quite so much, but I felt that she was on a whole new level.