Mumsnet is hiving off sex/gender issues into a sub-forum

[YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire]

It sounds like it's happening:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please

Many of us have explained how much we didn't want this and how unworkable it will be, but Mumsnet won't listen.

I honestly feel betrayed, and am just waiting for final confirmation then will delete my account.

Et tu, Justine?

I don't understand why you're setting off flares before knowing exactly what is going to happen.

@highame

I don't understand why you're setting off flares before knowing exactly what is going to happen.

Just to be clear, there’s no hiving off of the debate - we intend to streamline the topics in the FWR category from five down to two: one ‘Sex/Gender debate’ topic, and one Feminism Chat topic. This doesn’t mean that every thread mentioning sex or biology will be moved to the ‘Sex/Gender debate’ topic, which would as many of you have pointed out be unworkable and odd. It’s not about pushing gender-critical feminists into a ghetto, but it is about clearly signposting where people can find conversations - between all kinds of feminists - of the ‘what does it mean to be a woman, are trans women women, is trans-inclusive feminism/activism/language impacting on women’ variety, and providing a separate topic without conversations of that kind.

It won’t be news to anyone here that there are feminists who are intersectional/fourth wave/transinclusive/liberal (however you wish to classify them) who say the passion and preponderance of the gender-critical viewpoint in the current Feminism Chat area means they simply don’t engage with the Feminism topic at all (thousands of Mumsnet users have hidden it altogether). To quote one email we received this morning, ‘There is definitely a sense that Feminism Chat is only a place to discuss gender critical feminism. Any posts which question GCism get flooded with hundreds of hostile responses. Which might be more fair if MN was an explicitly GC site, but it portrays itself as a space for all feminism.’

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please (Justine 15/06/2021 16:42)

I welcome the idea, and I think Justine's explanations on the other thread are balanced and reasonable.

Because Justine has just announced: "we intend to streamline the topics in the FWR category from five down to two: one ‘Sex/Gender debate’ topic, and one Feminism Chat topic."

It does seem that this is what is happening. I am just waiting for Justine to confirm that there is no further opportunity to change her mind, then I will go.

I welcome the idea, and I think Justine's explanations on the other thread are balanced and reasonable.

I have always stood by Mumsnet but I think they are being disingenuous and unreasonable here pretending they are not hiving off the debate 🤷‍♀️

If it is just a topic split, I'm not immediately seeing it as a huge deal. The sex and gender one will be by far the higher-traffic one, based on current activity, and most of the discussions can carry on as-is.

Main problem will be that as the other one would be lower traffic, the non-sex/gender posts will likely get even less attention than they do now.

Overall, we may end up even more sex/gender focussed than we already are.

But if it is true that there are lots of people who want to talk about non-sex/gender feminism to hang out on that board, then maybe it'll be okay.

Good.

It’s a shame we don’t get the feminism chat name as it’s a big feminist issue.

Not sure it’ll work but I look forward to all those threads people wanted to start but felt they couldn’t.

It’s a shame we don’t get the feminism chat name as it’s a big feminist issue.

Well, the fact it's the biggest issue is obvious from the fact it's the only topic with a dedicated subforum...

The "misc" forum is for the smaller topics!

No one should leave.

Its still important to talk here.

I suspect that one topic will probably be mostly unused, and the mod team will have their workload doubled, but leaving only helps TRAs.

You can stay if you like but I'm done.

But when you see it being called sex/ gender place I think that people might think we are actually talking about doing sex.

That’s what I would think

And I do mean that

@YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire

I welcome the idea, and I think Justine's explanations on the other thread are balanced and reasonable.

I have always stood by Mumsnet but I think they are being disingenuous and unreasonable here pretending they are not hiving off the debate 🤷‍♀️

I don't see it as any different from having a separate Coronavirus topic, for example, rather than hosting those threads in the News or Health topics.

Coronavirus is inseparable from the news at the moment, and it's inseparable from health at the moment. But some posters - for example, those suffering from health anxiety - would rather avoid the topic, and it is possible to discuss news or health topics without discussing Coronavirus.

In the same way, it's been argued that the GC debate is inseparable from feminism - which is correct - but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to discuss some subjects under the feminism umbrella without reference to this debate.

As I understand the proposals, the new topic will still quite rightly sit within 'Feminism' but will be separate from 'Feminism Chat'. That sounds sensible to me - if MNHQ wanted to 'hive it off' surely they would create an entirely separate topic, not just a sub-topic.

@MarshaBradyo

It’s a shame we don’t get the feminism chat name as it’s a big feminist issue.

Not sure it’ll work but I look forward to all those threads people wanted to start but felt they couldn’t.

Yes. Or will they just move across to police it there?

That's your choice but I do think it might be an over reaction. Think about taking a pause and stick with our community 🙂

Don’t leave OP. These spaces where we can discuss this new form of sex oppression are so important. We need passionate voices. Stick around.

To quote one email we received this morning, ‘There is definitely a sense that Feminism Chat is only a place to discuss gender critical feminism. Any posts which question GCism get flooded with hundreds of hostile responses. Which might be more fair if MN was an explicitly GC site, but it portrays itself as a space for all feminism.’

You are being carpet bombed with such emails intentionally and purposefully to hive unwanted women's voices into a dark cupboard (and from there hopefully ditch them together.) You're being played like fiddles. Rather like the occasional threads that appear playing the 'gosh I'm a feminist with no voice becuase you lot want to talk about feminism won't ignore all the elephants', who promptly proves they have no posting history, joined MN about five minutes ago, have read no threads on the board at all, do not participate in around the 50% (do check, TRA rulers of MN keep helpful logs on Twitter of this as part of their campaign against removing women's legal rights) of threads that are not sex/trans ideology related at all, nor in any of the feminist issues anywhere else all over MN. They rarely continue to post beyond the initial one and it's blatantly about creating wanted evidence.

These people will not generate you traffic or income once they have their way. They will not use the resource provided. They're here to break, not build

Oh I don’t like this.

This debate is a feminist discussion.

I wouldn’t mind if feminism was included in the title.

Perhaps, Feminism- Sex/ gender

I hope you don't go, OP. I hope nobody goes!

I don't see that feminism exists without 'sex and gender' - I mean every topic related to feminism is about the female sex, and how gender impacts on our sex. So I can't really imagine what topics that are 'feminist' are separate from 'sex and gender'. But we shall see, I suppose.

As littl says, it might well confuse some people due to the homophone issue, but ... well, hopefully we won't get too many hairy handed visitors.

And I'm presuming feminists aren't going to be actually barred from 'feminist chat', so we can still go in there and discuss ... whatever it is about feminism that doesn't involved 'sex and/or gender'.

I don't understand. Is there a divide between feminists who discuss issues relating to sex and gender and feminists who consider things from an intersectional perspective?
I've studied feminist theory and practice from an intersectional perspective (mainly focusing on intersections of 'race', class, disability and religion) for a long time and I've not come across this.
Or is this intersectional in the modern, casual sense which means centring men?
Patricia hill collins, for example, does not centre men but is an expert in intersectional feminism.

@NecessaryScene

If it is just a topic split, I'm not immediately seeing it as a huge deal. The sex and gender one will be by far the higher-traffic one, based on current activity, and most of the discussions can carry on as-is.

Main problem will be that as the other one would be lower traffic, the non-sex/gender posts will likely get even less attention than they do now.

Overall, we may end up even more sex/gender focussed than we already are.

But if it is true that there are lots of people who want to talk about non-sex/gender feminism to hang out on that board, then maybe it'll be okay.

This! I think the traffic will be higher for the Sex/gender section, and the other part will wither and fade as less people visit.

The current FWR section needs to be sought out, its hardly plastered on the front of the site.

I hope no one goes. It will be ok. Take a bit of getting used to, but we can still let the conversation continue. And that's definitely worth it. I've learnt so much from the knowledgeable women here. So I hope you do all stay.

If it's just a sub topic that is still within feminism, I'm not really seeing the problem?

I'm honestly racking my brains to think of feminist issues with no relationship to sex and gender. I just keep thinking of 'the prism of sex', 'sex, race and class' etc which really do explore why sex/gender have an impact on women's oppression or position in society.

I will stay and see what happens because I think it's important to keep talking and to keep the conversation on a public forum.
However I'm not impressed that - however MNHQ try to spin this - it appears to be the regular posters who are being moved out. Normally the onus is on posters who find a board doesn't meet their needs to request their own space which has always seemed quite reasonable to me.

It will be interesting to see how busy the new look 'Feminism chat' will be now that those posters who say it's too hostile to post here have got their way.