Mumsnet is hiving off sex/gender issues into a sub-forum

[YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire]

It sounds like it's happening:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please

Many of us have explained how much we didn't want this and how unworkable it will be, but Mumsnet won't listen.

I honestly feel betrayed, and am just waiting for final confirmation then will delete my account.

Et tu, Justine?

Nolite te bastardes carborundum

@Signalbox

Woohoo 🥳 means the feminism board might finally have some actual feminism on it for once!

I'm intrigued to know what are the feminist issues that don't relate, in some way, to sex or gender?

I think the issue is that the vast majority of the feminism topic as it stands isn’t about sex or gender alone, it’s about trans rights and where they overlap.

@User52739

Woohoo 🥳 means the feminism board might finally have some actual feminism on it for once!

Feminism without acknowledging sex? Hahaha ok

Let’s not forget: Women do have vaginas, Nick.

I'm totally confused. So someone starts a topic on women's pay. They are GC, so post on the GC board. There's no mention of the trans topic. Is it moved to the other board?

Someone else is not GC. They start a topic on women's pay on the non-GC board. Someone else adds a post wondering how self-ID impacts the stats. Is the thread then moved onto the GC board?

I’ll wait and see what happens. I think initially they’ll be people posting to say how happy they are to have somewhere away from the vipers gender critical feminists but it will soon peter out because they’re not interested in discussing feminism, just in shutting us up.

I do think the word feminism needs to be in the new sub forum title though.

@WinterIsGone

I'm totally confused. So someone starts a topic on women's pay. They are GC, so post on the GC board. There's no mention of the trans topic. Is it moved to the other board?

Someone else is not GC. They start a topic on women's pay on the non-GC board. Someone else adds a post wondering how self-ID impacts the stats. Is the thread then moved onto the GC board?

Mumsnet did suggest calling it something like ‘feminism and trans issues’ but that didn’t go down well.

Will all the threads currently on Feminism Chat still be accessible somewhere?

What about "women-centred feminism" and "male-centred feminism" boards? We can see which gets the best traffic.

Or FWR, and "Personism, and persons', some of whom are vagina-havers, rights"?

I for one am going to post proper feminism wherever it should rightly be!

If it's just a sub topic that is still within feminism, I'm not really seeing the problem?

Me too, provided that GC views can still be expressed in chat.

They've said threads won't be deleted.

I'm assuming they will all stay where they are, as part of the history of the now-non-trans "feminism chat". That won't be a "new" board. (Just as the current "feminism chat" continued from "women's rights").

"Sex/gender" or whatever it is will be a new board.

There is definitely a sense that Feminism Chat is only a place to discuss gender critical feminism. Any posts which question GCism get flooded with hundreds of hostile responses. Which might be more fair if MN was an explicitly GC site, but it portrays itself as a space for all feminism

I don't understand how the new system will deal with this issue if it exists. The floods of "hostile responses" are presumably just many women who disagree with what has been said. And even if there is a new sub forum for "sex and gender" that doesn't mean that those women will confine themselves away in that section never to be seen again. The feminist boards will still be read and commented on by all the women who currently use the forum.

Can it at least have a more intuitive name, like "Sex/Gender in Feminism Debate"? (Or you know, something better than that!)

@Faffertea

I’ll wait and see what happens. I think initially they’ll be people posting to say how happy they are to have somewhere away from the vipers gender critical feminists but it will soon peter out because they’re not interested in discussing feminism, just in shutting us up.

I do think the word feminism needs to be in the new sub forum title though.

I agree with all this

Mumsnet did suggest calling it something like ‘feminism and trans issues’ but that didn’t go down well

Justine said ‘We could just call the topic women's/trans rights I suppose…’

Which quite obviously went down like a lead balloon

@Signalbox

There is definitely a sense that Feminism Chat is only a place to discuss gender critical feminism. Any posts which question GCism get flooded with hundreds of hostile responses. Which might be more fair if MN was an explicitly GC site, but it portrays itself as a space for all feminism

I don't understand how the new system will deal with this issue if it exists. The floods of "hostile responses" are presumably just many women who disagree with what has been said. And even if there is a new sub forum for "sex and gender" that doesn't mean that those women will confine themselves away in that section never to be seen again. The feminist boards will still be read and commented on by all the women who currently use the forum.

Yeah

I’m not getting it…

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Mumsnet did suggest calling it something like ‘feminism and trans issues’ but that didn’t go down well

Justine said ‘We could just call the topic women's/trans rights I suppose…’

Which quite obviously went down like a lead balloon

Yes, I couldn’t remember exactly.

I think the issue though isn’t that it’s being downgraded, it’s the other topics that are being shaved off. They just don’t come under the heading of ‘trans discussion’ though so it’s harder to group them, so it’s the more general ‘feminism’.

I don’t get it either. I’ve asked several times now for some examples of topics that people currently wouldn’t post about, but would want to in future, but I haven’t had any yet.

Would those supportive please throw me a bone and give me some examples?!

@Sophoclesthefox

I don’t get it either. I’ve asked several times now for some examples of topics that people currently wouldn’t post about, but would want to in future, but I haven’t had any yet.

Would those supportive please throw me a bone and give me some examples?!

Gender pay gap? Everyday sexism? Raising girls?

Interesting that Justine says we can discuss (on the new board) whether trans women are women because at the moment, I think reaching the natural conclusion of that discussion earns you a ban.

Raising girls?
Everything about raising girls, but not mentioning anything about gender dysphoria, which seems to have affected some of my DD's friends. But anorexia, say, will be ok.

Thank you. I think number one and two can probably be discussed and never stray into forbidden territory, but number three, I don’t think can, because raising girls these days is absolutely fraught with issues relating to trans.

I’ve seen some rousing debate on gender pay gap, but I have to say that everyday sexism type threads don’t generate much interest.

And I’m still not sure why either of the first two would be difficult to discuss here.

So thanks, but I still don’t see the point.

Gender pay gap? Everyday sexism? Raising girls?

People do post about those topics on FWR already. They're of general interest, wtf would anyone not?

@Sophoclesthefox

Thank you. I think number one and two can probably be discussed and never stray into forbidden territory, but number three, I don’t think can, because raising girls these days is absolutely fraught with issues relating to trans.

I’ve seen some rousing debate on gender pay gap, but I have to say that everyday sexism type threads don’t generate much interest.

And I’m still not sure why either of the first two would be difficult to discuss here.

So thanks, but I still don’t see the point.

Well, as a PP said above, things like anorexia or eating disorders, sexualisation within schools, clothing for young girls, sex as a teenager, birth control,

I suspect Justine doesn't review the bans personally and doesn't realise how much its like walking on eggshells, with different mods applying different levels of punishment.