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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mumsnet is hiving off sex/gender issues into a sub-forum

327 replies

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 15/06/2021 17:57

It sounds like it's happening:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please

Many of us have explained how much we didn't want this and how unworkable it will be, but Mumsnet won't listen.

I honestly feel betrayed, and am just waiting for final confirmation then will delete my account.

Et tu, Justine?

OP posts:
pheebumbalatti · 16/06/2021 14:00

It's clearly damage control as this site is becoming notorious nowadays for its largely anti-trans user base. Not good for their image and advertising revenue when about every other trending thread is anti-trans in some way.

MarshaBradyo · 16/06/2021 14:01

@pheebumbalatti

It's clearly damage control as this site is becoming notorious nowadays for its largely anti-trans user base. Not good for their image and advertising revenue when about every other trending thread is anti-trans in some way.
Not ‘anti trans’ for women’s rights.
EishetChayil · 16/06/2021 14:01

It's women's rights I want to talk about here. Not trans rights. Trans people can do the legwork as far as their rights are concerned.

I honestly don't see how any feminist can call herself a feminist if she thinks men can be women, but that's just me I guess.

MarshaBradyo · 16/06/2021 14:02

Mnhq put the reasoning on another thread somewhere

ifIwerenotanandroid · 16/06/2021 14:06

'notorious'

'anti-trans user base'

You missed out radicalised & nest of vipers.

Erikrie · 16/06/2021 14:11

It's clearly damage control as this site is becoming notorious nowadays for its largely anti-trans user base. Not good for their image and advertising revenue when about every other trending thread is anti-trans in some way.

For goodness sake. Why does the removal of women's rights and safeguards have to be framed as anti trans all the bloody time. It's not anti trans. I doubt there are many here who are anti trans. It's pro women. Women's rights. Women's safety. On a feminist board.

Erikrie · 16/06/2021 14:12

I honestly don't see how any feminist can call herself a feminist if she thinks men can be women, but that's just me I guess.

Not just you.

MarshaBradyo · 16/06/2021 14:13

@Erikrie

It's clearly damage control as this site is becoming notorious nowadays for its largely anti-trans user base. Not good for their image and advertising revenue when about every other trending thread is anti-trans in some way.

For goodness sake. Why does the removal of women's rights and safeguards have to be framed as anti trans all the bloody time. It's not anti trans. I doubt there are many here who are anti trans. It's pro women. Women's rights. Women's safety. On a feminist board.

Because some like to stick the boot into to anything women’s rights related. Just knee jerk reaction without much thought.
ANewCreation · 16/06/2021 14:15

I don't think this is being handled at all well.

There is nothing from MNHQ about the proposed change on Feminism Chat itself, rather talk offstage elsewhere. Which is rude. Basic feminist principles: Nothing about us without us etc.

There is no collective discussion about what impacts the Maya case may have on language here and it was pretty crass to tie the mooting of the upheaval of the new forum to the Maya case language implications discussion in site stuff. Seems like a case of misdirection. Don't look over here, look over there.

Also, pressure is not coming from within feminism chat for a change, but from...? Some emails? Yet it will be imposed on and have the biggest impact on posters already here anyway. Cos we are the ones actually posting and engaging here and providing content and traffic. Whereas the people who have it hidden, don't bother posting, who pop up to say 'good', who don't bother starting threads, or commenting seem to be about to be given the resource others have built up. Most odd.

It's a bit like me demanding that they change style and beauty to suit my needs. Never been on it, never posted but centre me, because I am not included. Because, reasons.

OK, I can see that there is probably some appetite for a Liberal/3rd wave Feminism type board for posters who find the feminists of the current Feminism chat the 'wrong kind of feminist' and it's true they do struggle to get their voice heard.

Personally, I think that this is because their arguments are not strong enough and not robust enough to deal with both the onslaught on women's rights, spaces, language and voices we are experiencing currently and the very strong well argued opinions of the regulars here. But if they had their own section of board, I imagine they would be able to articulate them better or in greater depth.

If Feminism Chat as a forum title makes it seem as if this is the 'only' form of feminism on the site, then I personally have no problems about swapping the name. The new one should be chosen by the members and posters, not mumsnet who have shown themselves to be tone deaf in their handling so far.

The huge mistake, I believe, would be to try to control the content of the boards by saying one is for discussions of sex and gender and the other one isn't. Nothing is that straightforward, particularly when it comes to feminism.

We have already seen evidence on this thread where twitter bots/pp interpreting threads as 'trans issues' is not sufficiently nuanced. PP thought 37, twitter bot thought 29, I'd say 9!

Is a current thread about guides: a trans issue because of guidance with input by Aimee 'incapable of understanding safeguarding' Challenor and Jane 'extreme porn advocate' Fae? A Safeguarding issue? A Single sex Space issue? A Gender over sex issue? A teenage girl issue?

Threads about Sonia Appleby case: Trans issue because about Gids? Safeguarding issue? Black woman being excluded from discussion issue? Protection for whistle-blowers? Health issue?

Maya case: Sex matters issue? Hierarchies of Protected characteristics? Interpretation of the Equality Act 2010? Belief/lack of belief? Free speech? Grainger V? Misgendering non binary people with beards? Work environment/job security for women with 'controversial' views?

I saw a spread sheet with the key words which are used to scrape for tweets to report and girl guides, safeguarding, Maya and Sonia Appleby are all on the long list. JKR too. The three letter abbreviation that dare not speak its name is the top term.

It's a bit like how a previous (possibly now banned?) poster always used to try to get threads on teens with gender issues moved to the LGBT board rather than appreciating that the thread starter had wanted a specifically feminist response.

The point is that there could be parallel discussions on any or all of these topics from a lib fem and an FWR point of view.

And posters could pick the approach they would prefer if they really want to talk about the issues but had a different feminist belief. That is one of the things that Maya's case showed us. We are allowed to express our belief or lack of belief.

And, please God, the more egregious comments as exemplified by the SRE worker would still be picked up by lib fems with a working knowledge of safeguarding?

Bunshaped · 16/06/2021 14:18

@pheebumbalatti

It's clearly damage control as this site is becoming notorious nowadays for its largely anti-trans user base. Not good for their image and advertising revenue when about every other trending thread is anti-trans in some way.
Will all the posts on the new #bekiiind board be as insightful and accurate as this? I can't wait.
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/06/2021 14:18

@pheebumbalatti

It's clearly damage control as this site is becoming notorious nowadays for its largely anti-trans user base. Not good for their image and advertising revenue when about every other trending thread is anti-trans in some way.
It’s only anti-trans if you thinking standing up for women’s existing sex based protections is anti-trans. Wanting to maintain our protections isn’t anti anyone; it’s pro women.

Women are allowed to set their own boundaries.

Floisme · 16/06/2021 14:18

I think any attempts at damage control are coming from the genderist side of the argument, who are watching the 'no debate' strategy crumbling and are frantically trying to shore it up.

mollythemeerkat · 16/06/2021 14:26

Will there be a tsunami of threads moved from the "fluffy" board to the other one when the inevitable questioning of "gender" politics pops up? Or will all those threads be deleted? I`m another one who doesnt get how a properly feminist board can work if you cut out this pressing issue.

JoodyBlue · 16/06/2021 14:30

@ANewCreation that's a great post. I agree.

DisposableNamechange · 16/06/2021 14:46

[quote JoodyBlue]@ANewCreation that's a great post. I agree.[/quote]
Absolutely. 💪

(And can I just suggest ‘Radicalisation Portal’ as the name for the new section that we don’t want?)

pheebumbalatti · 16/06/2021 15:00

I was pointing out that it's perceived as anti-trans. This response shows how you're unable to separate the two ideas. You've saying your anti-trans because you're pro-women, you're implying those two ideologies are mutually exclusive, and that's rife on this site, hence the bad image they're trying to cleanup.

MarshaBradyo · 16/06/2021 15:05

@pheebumbalatti

I was pointing out that it's perceived as anti-trans. This response shows how you're unable to separate the two ideas. You've saying your anti-trans because you're pro-women, you're implying those two ideologies are mutually exclusive, and that's rife on this site, hence the bad image they're trying to cleanup.
Putting the threads in a slightly different topic is not to clear up an image. Why would it?

To outsiders who cares where we post? We’ll still have the conversations.

It’s because some posters want a place to discuss other things,

Waitwhat23 · 16/06/2021 15:08

It's perceived as 'anti trans' by anyone who thinks that women trying to retain their sex based rights is an attack on trans rights and there has been a determined attempt (on every platform) to stifle any attempt to discuss the matter in a civil way (no debate, no platforming, no evidence etc etc). The fact that the discussion is allowed to exist at all is 'anti trans' to some people as evidenced by the determined monitoring of this site by misogynistic monitors.

MarshaBradyo · 16/06/2021 15:10

This notion of a people being responsible for a ‘bad image’ is ridiculous. If people are misogynistic enough to talk about anti trans in this context who cares - it’s their issue.

Floisme · 16/06/2021 15:14

Yes there have certainly been attempts to stifle any discussion of women's rights and spaces as 'anti trans'. But after events of the last few weeks these attempts are looking increasingly ragged.

Moving and / or re-badging this sub forum is an annoyance and I won't pretend otherwise, but the discussion is out in the open now - on AIBU and in Chat - and, once it's out there, nothing is going to put it back in its box.

Redapplewreath · 16/06/2021 15:21

You've saying your anti-trans because you're pro-women, you're implying those two ideologies are mutually exclusive,

If you read around the FWR board you very quickly find that this idea that showing any care and consideration for women equating as anti trans is not something that comes from women who care about women's rights, its an accusation constantly directed towards them.

Again an interesting example of how one belief system can say this constantly and no one pulls them up on it or questions it at all but the other belief system? Get constantly held accountable for the slightest hint towards what is wholly acceptable so long as not said by them.

Constant double standards. Women who care about sex based rights for women would like answers that work for all people equally, including women who want and need sex based language, spaces and resources. They are told this is incompatible with TW having rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/06/2021 15:40

I was pointing out that it's perceived as anti-trans.

By trans activists and their allies. Yes, standing up for women's sex based rights and centring our needs is perceived as "anti" the interests of the group that seeks to remove them. Surprise.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/06/2021 16:05

@ifIwerenotanandroid

'notorious'

'anti-trans user base'

You missed out radicalised & nest of vipers.

Also ‘toxic hotbed’.
Vanishun · 16/06/2021 16:24

Ew, bad image of the 21st century, a woman who thinks she exists.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 16/06/2021 16:48

Oh, I like 'toxic hotbed'! My first thought was of a hotrod car, but it would be a great name for a flame-coloured flower.