Sexless Marriages Support Thread part 2

[AishaReturns]

My last thread got full so starting a new one. This is a place to rant, support and share advice for coping in sexless marriages. All welcome, no judgment just support.

me: 40s female, been probably 3 yrs.

@AishaReturns Your last post was honest, which is the most important thing. I think shame around sex is what stops a lot of people enjoying it, even (especially?) those without a massive sex drive, and talking about it openly helps.

I definitely had a problem with sex when I was younger, and that got in the way of enjoyment of a healthy sex life, and I probably brought that attitude into my marriage; I'm pretty sure my wife feels internalised shame around sex, which is basically why she can only enjoy it when it's 'illicit': one-night stands, or an affair. Enjoying healthy sex with me brings her into contact with these feelings of shame, and she can't really cope with it. With a one-night stand, she can fuck the guy then forget all about it. She doesn't have to look at him the next day.

Thank you @LochSunart It was honest but maybe a bit too much TMI… and you’re right about shame.

@LochSunart yeah I get being married to someone like me must be pretty shitty in that regard. Though in fairness I am trying to do something about it. It’s focusing the mind reading the other side, particularly the wearing down of self esteem. I’m very deliberate in making sure I’m kind and thoughtful and physically affectionate with my husband though. Kisses but no snogging. Not interested. I suspect I’ve really just friend zoned him. DH still very much desires me. He’s not great in bed though to be honest, I ‘carried’ him in that aspect the early years, and that was enough to more than keep me going (and no he didn’t take instruction, I’ve long since given up) and then kids come along and well you know the rest.

It really will have only been in recent history where divorce is a reasonable consideration for this sort of issue, where the relationship is otherwise good. I’m sure my lovely granny if she were here would be telling me to just to get on with it, there are far worse things than not swinging from the chandeliers.

Thoughts on this is general are that we can outsource pretty much every other aspect of a marriage without judgement EXCEPT sex. Companionship, emotional connection, even hugs etc can all be met through friendships. And yet sex is the only thing for me that’s not right. It sucks, on both sides.

Personally for me, I've gone through the hurt, the tears, the shame......now I feel resentment and anger towards him. I'm also angry with myself for putting up with it and not doing something about the situation sooner.

@OneFingerOneThumbKeepMoving : How long have you been together, and how long has it been sexless?

@LochSunart We've been married for 18 years. Sexless for about 12 months however it would have been much sooner had I not always initiated.

Well @HeronsBill we have outsourced the sex as we have agreed an ENM arrangement. Its kind of worked but not ideal. @OneFingerOneThumbKeepMoving tgat anger and resentment is what got us to that point

I'm not likely to do it, but how on earth do you go about ENM arrangements?

I genuinely have no idea how anyone ends up in those arrangements, how to find someone, i just can't imagine asking anyone!

I can imagine ENM isn’t ideal at all. And you’re right, that it’s an acceptable way to outsource, ethical being the very term.

Conundrum for our times I feel.

Do couples agree first to ENM, then go about looking? Or as the memes go - it’s usually the man who has someone in mind but his wife then runs and runs with it!

I’m not sure if I should apologise for being on this thread, being as I am the partner who’s denying her DH the sex life he would want, but in actuality it’s really the same problem. I also want a good sex life, but it’s not with him, my desire for him is low, despite being in an otherwise loving & committed relationship.

I'd be interested to know (not that it's any of my business) how this works out, although in practical terms it solves a problem i'm about 100% convinced that if i shared intimacy with someone else i would catch feelings...i guess if you're the sort of person that can see sex at a transactional level then it might work but it will rely on both parties having the same mindset.

I hope it works for you as you deserve to live your life and enjoy a healthy sex life, i suppose if it doesn't work out or you do catch feelings at least you will have naturally moved on, so may be a win win.

I'll use one of my favourite sayings, nothing changes if nothing changes...

I've just been for a walk and had similar wonderings to @OMGDidYouSayThat. So many say they want to feel connected to their spouse by having sex with them. How does an affair, hook-up or ENM connect you to your partner? Do you connect with the person you're having sex with or is it just sex? Do you desire them or sex?

If you're looking for a connection, a closeness but then going and just having sex without the connection, don't you feel a bit sad afterwards? I know I would.

Or, if you were all totally honest - is any of it really about wanting to feel connected to your partners or is it really just about wanting more sex?

Thinking about what you said i imagine you can break down sex into 2 parts,

The physical desire to have an orgasm, fun & excitement.
The emotional side which gives you closeness, builds a connection and creates emotional security in a relationship.

I think it's possible to be able to just have orgasms for fun only if you're programmed in a way where you have the ability to control emotional attachment, i would only want to have sex with someone if i found them attractive (in my eyes this is way more than skin deep) therefore it would be impossible for me, because why would i not become emotionally attached to someone i found attractive? And on the flip side i'm not sure i could have sex with someone i didn't find attractive.

@AtYourPleasure Closeness to another (female) human being. I'd much rather that were my wife, but she's decided that's not going to happen. And it very much isn't "just sex", and certainly not just fucking. Or maybe what I mean by "sex" is very broad, broader than some people's definition.

Without going into detail, I've encountered women online who've essentially said, "All you're interested in is sex." Well, I've finally come to terms with the fact that, if that's what they think, let them think that. I've spent most of my life being ashamed, to varying degrees, of my desire and need for sex, and I'm not ashamed any more. Even that change is quite liberating (whilst I remain resolutely and unwillingly celibate.)

My questions were to everyone, especially those "outsourcing", not just men.

But yes, I've read comments from men on OLD threads saying they aren't interested in a woman's hobbies because "lets face it, if it wasn't for sex we wouldn't be spending time with women." I've had a man in a sexless marriage tell me his wife was always ugly, he never loved her and he hates her. When I asked if he still tried to have sex with her he said yes. Im pretty sure if he hates her and thinks she's ugly he's not looking to connect.

@AtYourPleasure : Well, I'm not one of those men. I love my wife, think she's beautiful, and I respect her. When you posed your question(s), you seem to be promoting the idea that a connection with a person outside your marriage isn't a true connection, and that if you seek sex outside your marriage, then it's just a physical act. Now, I have no direct experience of that but I know we can get true human connection outside our marriage in various forms, so why not sexual connection? The older I get, the more I think monogamy's maybe a terrible idea.

One night, within the last year, I was feeling utterly dejected, so I decided to go out. Got the train into my local city, went to a pub in a rough-ish estate and, when I was getting back on the bus into town, the (male) driver gave me a friendly nod - and, by god, how much I needed that connection with another human being at that moment. That's all it took. It was like, "I see you, bro."

Like most people, I have filthy and depraved thoughts (Psychologist to client: "Are you troubled by depraved sexual thoughts?" Client: "No, I quite enjoy them) but a lot of my need for sex is to lie naked, in contact with a woman who accepts me as I am. My wife rejecting me sexually is rejection of my being.

Mumsnet is primarily a women's forum, and I respect that, and if I was kicked off for being male, I'd say, "Fair enough, it's been great." When I read of a woman in a sexless marriage who loves her husband and finds true sexual connection outside her marriage, I'm happy for her. I don't think of her as a sex pest. It's the same for men.

When you posed your question(s), you seem to be promoting the idea that a connection with a person outside your marriage isn't a true connection, and that if you seek sex outside your marriage, then it's just a physical act. Now, I have no direct experience of that but I know we can get true human connection outside our marriage in various forms, so why not sexual connection? The older I get, the more I think monogamy's maybe a terrible idea.

I wouldn't say I was promoting the idea, but yes, that is what I am asking. Are those people who are outsourcing looking for a connection or is it just sex. Everyone says they want sex to connect with their spouse... how does that differ to sex/connection with someone else?

@AtYourPleasure "Are those people who are outsourcing looking for a connection or is it just sex." Thank you for responding. Obviously, what I say here is just my opinion. It's also a male perspective but what this forum has taught me is that there's less difference between the sexes than some believe. For example, both sexes suffering enforced celibacy use the phrase "soul destroying".

I'll give two responses. The first is an example of another intense emotion we're allowed to share outside of marriage, and the second is a response to "just sex".

Firstly: have you ever shared intense and sudden laughter with someone you maybe don't know that well? You both suddenly laugh at the same thing, intensely. Imagine what that feels like: in that moment, you forge a bond with that person that wasn't there a moment ago, and can't really be created in any other way than laughter. I don't think that emotion can really be put into words. It's very special

Secondly: what is "just sex"? Do you mean "just fucking"? I'm not saying that is what you mean. Perhaps you're trying to get at the idea that you're fucking a person you really don't see as a human - or maybe you've got an itch you can't reach so you ask a stranger to scratch it for you. You don't really care about them. Well, I'm sure "just sex" exists in that way and, yes, it could be a soulless experience, leaving you hollow inside. But, between "just sex" and a wonderful, meaningful sex life with the one person you've committed yourself to, there's a lot of space and, in that space, I am certain that good sexual relationships are possible. But we've been trained from birth for monogamy (apart from a few brave souls who reject this concept) and part of this training is to reject the idea that this in-between landscape even exists. I'm sure I felt that way for most of my life but, now, almost 60 and finally coming to terms with my own sexuality in a way that discards shame, I believe that a good and loving sexual relationship can exist apart from a marriage, whilst the marriage remains intact, and I suppose one of the things that has changed my belief in this area is reading accounts of others' sex lives, mainly women because it's Mumsnet.

@LochSunart I refer to your comment 'when I was getting back on the bus into town, the (male) driver gave me a friendly nod - and, by god, how much I needed that connection with another human being at that moment. That's all it took. It was like, "I see you, bro."'

I'm very much defined by my morals and to protect them i go out of my way to avoid scenarios where i might be drawn in or where i might get caught out emotionally, going back to what you said, when you are feeling vulnerable and at your lowest, it's quite unbelievable how the simplest comment from someone else can make you feel.

My situation is very similar to yours, i don't really blame anyone, least of all my wife as i'm sure she must have her reasons, but i had a similar thing happen, i went in to work one day after i'd had a haircut, the same haircut i'd had for a few months, usually any changes in appearance largely go un-noticed but for some reason this day at work was different, doing my daily checks around the building both of the girls behind the counter said, 'i love your hair' (these are both early 20's so way out of any acceptable age range) but the feeling that came over me at that exact moment in time because someone had actually gone out of their way to notice me and give a compliment blew me away, to the point i was emotionally a bit choked up.

Emotions in people that are in touch with them are both powerful and fragile, and the highs and lows can trigger the most overwhelming feelings. I'm unsure of how my morals would stand up if i was at a low point and someone was to try and take advantage of that, luckily i've always managed to avoid situations where that could be an issue.

I don’t think anyone needs to apologise, I’m thinking this thread is to gain some insight into thoughts others go through.

could I ask, have you ever thought of saying to your DH, I love you, but I just don’t want to sex with you and that’s it?

That you’re leaving him unless he wants you to stay in the circumstances you describe , you understand it’s hard but you have to be truthful?

i think id prefer that

no blame on either party, it just is what it is

There have been some really interesting points raised, and I'm following it all with great interest. It seems like a sexless marriage is experienced by both men and women, and lack of sex in a relationship can really change the way someone feels about themselves.

My ex-wife viewed sex totally differently to me. Towards the end of our marriage she asked me what sex meant to me. I said something like sex fun, it elevates the relationship, draws us closer together strengthens our bond and makes me feel amazing and connected to you. I then asked her whether she felt like that, she said no and walked off.

That highlighted the difference between our priorities towards sex. It meant much more to me then her. She told me she enjoyed it when we had sex but she clearly didn't get the same from it than I did.

To me, sex is not just a physical act, so I wouldn't want a casual thing. I would want sex with someone I at least was attracted to and could see a future with.

Thank you, yes I’m working through all that - I have those very thoughts about should I tell him that it’s unlikely my desire will be there for him again and to just let him go. There’s no coming back from that statement though!

Currently getting individual counselling, and DH has agreed with me that we’ll get couples counselling in the near future.

Meanwhile we continue to otherwise get on great as a couple. It’s really really hard. And there’s our kids in exam years for the next four years so that’s a huge consideration. On the other hand if I leave it too late for him to potentially have the option of meeting someone else but we do split up in say 5 years, will that have been cruel?

I myself am not interested in ever getting married again. So I’m best off sticking where I am. But is that fair to DH?

"Firstly: have you ever shared intense and sudden laughter with someone you maybe don't know that well? You both suddenly laugh at the same thing, intensely. Imagine what that feels like: in that moment, you forge a bond with that person that wasn't there a moment ago, and can't really be created in any other way than laughter. I don't think that emotion can really be put into words. It's very special"

@LochSunart ... ummm.... nothing that springs to mind in the way you describe. I chat to a guy at the bus stop most mornings. There's been a few giggles - nothing intense - the bus arrives and we go our seperate ways.t I don't think I've bonded or shared a connection with him. I'd probably feel that laugh more with someone with whom I was already bonded to or had a connection with.

To me, a bond or connection is something you build, build on.

"Secondly: what is "just sex"? Do you mean "just fucking"? I'm not saying that is what you mean. Perhaps you're trying to get at the idea that you're fucking a person you really don't see as a human - or maybe you've got an itch you can't reach so you ask a stranger to scratch it for you. You don't really care about them. "

Just sex for me is .. a ONS. A fuck buddy. An itch to be scratched. It's a physical act, a release. There's no interest in them, there's no care, no sharing of anything other than body parts.

As for monogamy... I believe in it. I have no desire to have sex with anyone else while in a relationship. I just don't want to. If I'm with someone, I'm with them. I'm all in. Could you say society has been trained for monogamy? I don't know. Maybe we've also been trained to believe that men need sex. Maybe you don't. Maybe we've been trained to believe that in order for a relationship to be happy you must have sex a certain number of times per week and if you aren't having that number then the relationship is doomed.

"but a lot of my need for sex is to lie naked, in contact with a woman who accepts me as I am. My wife rejecting me sexually is rejection of my being."

@LochSunart - the truth is, I do understand this. But for me it's different... I want to lie next to a man who accepts and loves and genuinely wants to know me for who I am - and not just because it's something he has to do to get me to have sex with him, or just not even bothering at all.

I’ll happily answer Qs on our ENM set up… tomorrow… just back from a late shift.

So our ENM set up came about after another failed attempt to get DH erect. I broke down a bit and we had an honest chat. For whatever reason, I need sex, the physical act. It’s an irresistible urge that I’ve had since late teens. In many ways, it’s how I imagine some men view sex.

we discussed options, including separating but we both love each other and our kids, home etc are really important to us both. He suggested I took a lover and we agreed some rules. So, never a secret, I’m open and we talk about what I have done. It always is safe, testing and condoms only so if he does get erect again he can feel safe and secure. It is not casual, I have only one lover at a time and that person has to know the arrangements. There are some specific acts I’ve agreed not to do. My husband has the same options should the issue be that he just can’t get erect for me.

in the 2 years I’ve had this arrangement, I’ve only had 2 other men. First was a widower, whose wife had died 10 yrs earlier. He was older and wanted sex without the relationship, we met once a month and dtd. After each time (no stay overs) I came back to my husband and answered his questions. That one ended because he wanted to meet more often and he wanted to break one of the rules.

The second was a divorcee I met at a conference. We have met twice, but live opposite ends of the country so it’s not a goer.

the arrangement has worked ok, but it’s really hard to find a decent man who can agree to the conditions. Husband and I are strong, and we are happier that the pressure of sex is off the table.
I know this wouldn’t work for everyone, but it does for me/us. I do have a connection to the other men, but friendship rather than romantic love.