Married to someone with Aspergers: support thread 5

[Bluebellforest1]

New thread

Oh and his latest thing is to constantly move my stuff around eg vases in kitchen as he thinks it's messy. It's driving me crazy as I don't want to live in a hotel. It seems to be worsening with age. Anyone else found this?

@stilllovegeorge I feel for you. It's not just the sexual intimacy, it's the physical - can we just have a hug, or the emotional - yes once every decade or so I need to hear the words "I love you".

@stilllovegeorge I can't even start to describe our house, it is complete utter chaos with years of junk piled high that DW insists are essential.

By contrast, I used to be a professional sportsman, DW unilaterally decided to get rid of my magazine collection (because they were out of date) each one of those magazines had a write up, report, or photo of me and or my team. It was like someone throwing your diaries away.

Sorry you’re in a similar situation NoGonnaLie. I’ve no idea what will happen. Every now and again he threatens to leave when I question his behaviour, however within half an hour it’s as though nothing ever happened. The DC love him despite his faults, so it’s complicated.

I don’t get hugs or hear those words either - I did before we got married. Even when I’ve needed emergency surgery I haven’t had a hug. I feel like maybe I should initiate but with how everything is and feeling like I’m an inconvenience I don’t feel like it.

We also have stuff moved around. DH likes gathering things and piling them up rather than putting them where they belong though, so I end up with a messy pile of things to sort through. When I wash up he reorganises how I put things on the drainer. He’s ruthless in getting rid of stuff though; he holds no sentimental value to anything so can throw things out without a second thought. He randomly throws strops about the DC’s toys. He’d happily live with nothing other than his couple of collections.

Thank you both. Sometimes you just need reassurance you're not losing it. He went away for a few days and I said it would have been nice if he'd thanked me for holding the fort here. When he returned from the second trip he used that exact form of words to thank me. It's these times that I realise he simply doesn't have the vocabulary to express any emotion.

How does everyone cope with holidays? I get annoyed because he walks away from me all the time, just walks off or will walk ahead at a fast pace.

Hi folks. We've had reports that the word 'Aspergic' isn't an appropriate description for people with ASD. While we can't profess to be experts here, we do advise people to swerve terms that may cause upset. Thank you.

I've dithered about replying to this, but here goes. Just in case you genuinely do wonder why some people are on this thread who you think shouldn't be

I found this series of threads years ago when I was trying to understand my relationship to my exH, and a counselor we were seeing suggested that he might be autistic and that might be the root of some problems. I really recognized a lot of the behaviours in him that people in this thread attribute to their partners having ASD. What I didn't recognize in the description of people's complaints about their partners was a reflection of me, which is odd because I am autistic.

My exH went on to be assessed for ASD, which he does not have. However, he did display a lot of the behaviour that people on here attribute to ASD. He was selfish, couldn't see the why he should try to compromise or meet my needs, didn't pay attention to the DC, insisted on everyone living their life to facilitate him, lacked empathy, etc. The thing I came to realise is that these are not traits of autism or caused by people's partners having ASD.

On any thread on here in the relationship section and the divorce section, you will see (mostly women) complain about partners who are like this. The thing these (mostly men) partners have on common is that they are abusive, selfish, inconsiderate d*cks. People behave like this, ASD or not. And ASD is not the cause in most cases.

So yes, lots of autistic people find this thread deeply offensive because it's full of people that link all sorts of awful, abusive behaviour in relationships to autism. But that's not accurate, and it feels like an attack on a part of my being that is integral to who I am.

Conflating lack of theory of mind with lack of empathy is offensive. Conflating antisocial personality disorder with ASD is offensive. Suggesting that abusive behaviour in many relationships stems from ASD is offensive. The number of people who refer to their partner's awful behaviour as evidence that the partner had "undiagnosed" ASD is offensive.

It's also utterly baffling why people on here complain so bitterly about their partners and yet stay with them. I look at lots of posts and want to just ask why you stay and put up with abuse? Why do you think you're worth so little? Why are you so willing to excuse behaviour that's unacceptable. ASD (if it even is ASD) isn't an excuse to be abusive. It's not an excuse to treat others badly. It doesn't mean you ignore direct information about how your behaviour impacts others.

So, I guess in summary, some people are here because they find threads like this that spread and perpetuate negative stereotypes and myths about ASD should be challenged and reported. And some of us came here hoping for support and enlightenment, and ended up just being shocked and appalled instead - so still occasionally report the worst, most offensive comments.

But mostly I just ignore the threads now, because I don't think people are here to try to understand, just to try to complain and seek validation for their own perspective.

Springerlink,

As someone who dips a toe until this thread from time to time, I ask you, is it so hard to understand? Most of us here do love our ASD partners, want to support them, be loyal to them, don't want to leave them in the lurch despite the hurts, some of us are just stuck, same as people in general can be. I could explain at very great length why I think my DW's behaviour towards me reflects her ASD, and therefore her personality, but not her morals as a person.

Furthermore everyone needs a space to vent. What you say about bad behaviour not necessarily being anything to do with ASD is true. Fine. There's generally a cornucopia of threads in the Relationships section ranting about men generally, every bit as bad as anything in here. Do you go in those threads telling them that the problem isn't men, but arseholes? Do you suggest I - a man - do that do that and say how offensive I find it? Or do you think, as I do, that people letting off steam on those really very frequent threads isn't really my business?

People stay with their ASD partners because

1. They love them.
2. They understand that their partners DO NOT MEAN to hurt them because they are NOT actually ABUSIVE INCONSIDERATE DICKS. (How fucking dare you generalise like this. Just -how fucking dare you). Their partners are people with ASD. They have no choice but to be the way they are. The way they are can be very, very difficult for their partner, who has the additional burden of knowing that their ASD partner is not being the way they are on purpose.
3. They do their absolute best to make the relationship work, but it is one in which their needs are not met, cannot ever be met and they UNDERSTAND this. In some cases, this doing their best absolutely breaks them.

It's also utterly baffling why people on here complain so bitterly about their partners and yet stay with them. I look at lots of posts and want to just ask why you stay and put up with abuse? Why do you think you're worth so little? Why are you so willing to excuse behaviour that's unacceptable.

What really gives me the rage though is that you can post this here on the Relationships board, where people are so often struggling to identify and come to terms with the fact that they are in an abusive relationship, let alone start to make the huge and difficult steps to separate from it. They come here for support and encouragement from those who are in the same situation, those that have been there before, those that are further down the line, those that can SHARE their experience. Where does your judgey bafflement fit in to that, exactly? This is victim blaming.

At the end of the day @SpringerLink you are not actually someone with a partner who has/had ASD. You are someone whose partner was an arsehole and I am sorry about that. But, amazingly, based on that experience, you appear to know all about how very WRONG those who DO have a partner with ASD and who DO have difficulties AS A DIRECT RESULT of that, are about their actual, own, personal lived experience. And - cherry on the cake - you have also somehow made it all about you.

@TomPinch Read some post that describe deeply abusive behaviour, and yes, it really is hard to understand why someone would stay in that relationship no matter what causes the abuse. I don't know your history or posts, I'm not around on this thread very often.

As for posts in the relationship section, you seldom see anyone generalise and say that the behaviour is because the partner is a man. It's usually pretty clear people see that the individual is an arsehole. And other posters routinely advise others not to tolerate abuse from a partner, no matter what the cause

But this thread is not really like that, it's a group of people blaming (often undiagnosed) ASD for causing abuse in a relationship.o Honestly, if a thread starter that essentially said all men are abusers, but they can't help it, it's because they are men, then I'd expect people to complain. That's the real comparison.

So yes, go feel free to challenge negative tropes and stereotypes about men. And I and many others will feel free to do the same about autism.

@Haffiana I can't generalise about what people say on here, but people can post offensive generalisation about autism. And that's somehow and ok generalisation to you?

And no, I haven't had a partner with ASD, but I have been and am again a partner with ASD. And I live with family members with ASD, and I work with people with ASD. I've also been in the position that many people on here are, where they are led to think their partner has ASD, and that this is somehow an excuse or reason for pretty much everything wrong in the relationship. It's not.

It really doesn't seem that people come on here to learn, just to complain and be validated. See how aggressive the response is if someone dares to suggest that maybe ASD isn't the reason, and maybe the tropes on this thread aren't actually true or helpful. That's not exactly open-minded.

Why are you 'daring' to suggest that autism isn't the reason in the first place? Why do feel the need to dare? What is the reason you are posting here at all, really? Your last post says that "it feels like an attack on a part of my being that is integral to who I am." So are you are also not here to learn, but only to tell Other People that their experiences of their own marriages and relationships didn't happen just because you feel attacked?

So yes, lots of autistic people find this thread deeply offensive because it's full of people that link all sorts of awful, abusive behaviour in relationships to autism. But that's not accurate, and it feels like an attack on a part of my being that is integral to who I am.

It isn't about you. It. Isn't. About. You.

It is a thread for people who are in a relationship with someone who is ASD and who are having difficulty as a result of that to share their PERSONAL experiences and support each other.

Some of you really would be much happier not being married to your husbands any longer. It's also interesting to see some traits that are very like reading about my husband. He has traits of both autism and ADHD. I have ADHD. We are both good partners in some ways and terrible in others.

I hope this thread gives you a space to vent but I think sometimes it can be hard to separate the autism from other behaviours that can and absolutely should be challenged. When I challenge my husband he is willing to listen. That for me is the true test.

@SquirrelSoShiny that's such a good point about behaviours that should be challenged.

So many things stand out on this thread. People describing partners who absolutely can behave appropriately outside the marriage, yet don't within the marriage to their spouse. Partners who behaved differently in the past, showing that the negative behaviours now present aren't inevitable or unavoidable, and are possible to change. Yet this still gets excused. People describing partners who are unwilling to listen and learn.

@Haffiana I was on this thread because I was led to think my exH had ASD. I also had hoped to learn, given that I have ASD, from the perspective of NT partners of people with ASD. What I found was a hate-filled, negative thread full of stereotypes. And full of people describing partners behaving in a totally shocking way that was utterly alien to the way I am as a ND partner. You may not want to hear that what people describe on this thread as being attributable to ASD is actually more similar to how people generally describe abusive relationships (in other Mumsnet threads) with NT and ND partners.

But I completely agree with what @SquirrelSoShiny said. Unacceptable behaviour can always be challenged (ASD or not) and lots of the unacceptable behaviour can be separated from the ASD.

SpringerLink,

My posts are on pages 12 and 27 of this thread.

I accept the problems with ascribing 'bad' behaviour to ASD. I do see how that's very patronising to people with ASD. It can also be a way for people who get the brunt of it not to admit to themselves that actually they're just being badly treated, because the shame that means. And I also accept this is often directed at people with no diagnoses.

But think of it this way. First, there's often no way of knowing whether behaviour is just straight out bad or whether it's caused by ASD. Second, diagnoses are often hard to get there may be very good reasons for suspecting that it's a factor in a person. There will be plenty of undiagnosed ASD people out there.

So I think a bit of leeway is warranted, including the odd rant. I drew a comparison with threads on bad behaviour by men. And I agree that some very bad behaviour is often described. No doubt a lot of those descriptions are accurate (and another proportion will be inaccurate, one-sided, embellished or made up to various degrees). If you think that there are rarely generalisations about male behaviour on here then I respectfully disagree: there's generally a Two Minute Hate going on somewhere. And while it can cross the line I see nothing wrong people letting off steam online. Same with this thread.

@SpringerLink You're spot on with your observations but don't worry, the neurotypicals are here to rage at you and tell you how they know so much more than you - an actual autistic person - about autism and neurodiversity.

Probably obvious by now that I'm neurodiverse myself - I have ADHD and am autistic.

I've muted this thread because I don't really want any notifications. And I've deliberately not read through most of it for the reasons you set out Springer. This thread perpetuates harmful stereotypes and slings a whole shedload of shit at autism when the fundamental issue is probably nothing to do with autism.

Imagine if someone set up a thread slagging off women as a gross generalisation, and how shit and awful they are to be in a relationship with. People on here would be outraged at the audacity but of course, we're autistic so we're just shitty, scummy people and it's totes fine to have multiple, multiple threads discussing what a burden on everyone's life we are. I love nothing more than seeing yet another thread to discuss how awful it is having an autistic person around.

It's so much easier to blame autism or neurodiversity for shortcomings in a relationship instead of accepting that it's an individual character flaw. I entirely accept that autism may sometimes exacerbate a certain problem or difficulty but it's not the catch-all reason for a shitty relationship, or for a shitty partner that everyone seems to think.

And as for the lack of diagnoses, of course that's an issue. But the minute anyone displays a hint of unreasonable behaviour, there's a queue of people lining up to suggest it's autism. Because in most people's minds autism = shitty behaviour, and threads like this just perpetuate the harmful stereotypes even more.

When an actual autistic person comes along to very politely point out that there may be other factors to consider rather than just "autistic people - ugh, am I right?!" - the autistic person gets her arse handed to her by neurotypicals who are self-righteous and apparently know so much more about us than we do ourselves. Sure thing.

Solidarity to you @SpringerLink and @SquirrelSoShiny. I won't be back on this shitshow of a thread but curiosity eventually got the better of me tonight. I should have known better.

Hello all. Just repeating DawnMumsnet's post from 2020. This thread is part of a long-running discussion on Mumsnet. It was originally set up with the following request:

This thread is for partners seeking to understand the dynamics of their relationship with someone with ASD. It is a support thread, and a safe space to have a bit of a rant. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner. (ASD partners welcome to lurk or pop in, but please don't argue with other posters and tell them they are wrong).

As always, if you're concerned about any post on here, please report it to MNHQ and we'll take a look.

@SpidersAreShitheads @SpringerLink @SquirrelSoShiny there are some common elements on this thread.

Most of us have been with our partners for a very long time, usually decades. We love and deeply care for them. We also recognise that they are genuinely good people, and it's very rare that words abuse and empathy are used by posters, except yourselves of course.

Some of the partners are also ND.

Many of us also have ASC children.

The relationship between long term partners is, usually, unique. But there is an undeniable dynamic between us and our ASC partners. A dynamic of minimisation, dismissiveness, neglect and misunderstanding that without a hint irony you also adopt.

Yeah tbh I totally reject the idea that I'm minimising it @Daftasabroom believe me I've experienced those very traits from DH and at times I know he experienced various annoying traits from me that are absolutely tied to my adhd.

All I'm saying is that it is very possible to have autism AND be an abusive arsehole, just as people can be abusive arseholes without having autism. I've known examples of both. One of them was very angry when he was told he was not in fact autistic as he'd been wandering round for years telling people he had and using it as his excuse to be a total bellend! He was genuinely devastated when Psychiatry told him in no uncertain terms that he did not have autism 🙄

For me, the clear distinction is in the partner's willingness to engage. I know I felt very lonely in my marriage at times and I often feel that my DH will prioritise other people over me as a default. The difference is that now I see it and call him out on it, he is willing to consider the possibility. This is because regardless of his traits he is willing to make an effort to be a better husband and to have a better relationship.

I don't want to upset people. It's just there are some posts on here that make me wince because they are describing abusive behaviour. I always feel upset reading about abusive behaviour towards anyone, regardless of whether it involves NT or ND people.

@SquirrelSoShiny thank you for clarifying.

Hopefully the earlier diagnoses will allow people to understand themselves better. I think an adult diagnosis for anything sometimes comes once the environmental aspect of our character is baked in IYKWIM?

I completely agree with @SquirrelSoShiny

There are really worrying trends on this thread. People excusing abusive behaviour, because their partner is (sometimes only allegedly) autistic. When I first came to this thread, that's what I was encouraged to do - incorrectly it turned out.

But exactly what @SquirrelSoShiny said, autism doesn't stop you trying to engage with what your partner needs and it doesn't mean you can't listen and believe them. You might not be able to get there on your own, but outright ignoring what another person directly tells you they need is abusive in a relationship, not ASD. People can be arseholes in a relationship, ND or NT. And awful behaviour in a relationship is not a good indication of ASD, it's a good indication of being an arsehole.

The other thing that's absolutely in common with other threads about abusive relationships is that the abused partner says they "love" the other person, and tells anyone outside the relationship that they can't see/understand that and don't see that the partner is really a good person.

You're right that people don't often use the word abusive in posts, but that doesn't mean they aren't describing abusive behaviour.

@Daftasabroom you described above "a dynamic of of minimisation, dismissiveness, neglect..." in your relationship. You often describe situation that read as abusive. All I (and I think @SquirrelSoShiny) are saying is that this isn't inevitable in a relationship with someone who has ASD. I'm very much not dismissing your assessment that there are fundamental and very difficult problems with your marriage, what I'm saying is that it's unreasonable to blame it on ASD. Doing that perpetuates negative tropes and stereotypes about autism.

Try, as a thought experiment, re-reading parts of these threads, but every time someone blames ASD replace it with a different protected characteristic that also has a lot of negative stereotypes associated with it. See if that makes comfortable reading. Then see if you can understand why some people find a lot of this thread so offensive.

one recent morning I said to DH
”I’m so stressed about work, I feel sick.”
DH “I feel calm.”
me “Did you mean to be so insensitive? Let’s try again. I’m so stressed about my work situation I feel sick.”
DH “Oh.”

A few days later
Me “I’m feeling really stressed about work.”
DH “”Hmm. I know you’ve explained it to me but I don’t understand the situation.” Wanders off.

rinse and repeat. He’s not being abusive. He’s not trying to destabilise or belittle me. In fact he’s much more settled when I am settled but I can’t be all the time (I am most of the time though).

Some of the time I quite like his candour. What you see is what you get. But sometimes I’d like my person to say,
“Oh it’s so rubbish. You poor darling. They’re all a load of bastards.”
I know that sort of pretending is a glib NT response but sometimes that would be nice.

I often feel alone with my feelings and I can get weighed down by it.

I have followed Tony Attwood’s advice and built hobbies and close social connections outside home where people do the glib, unconditionally supportive rather than honest stuff.

But things aren’t where I thought they would be when we met. As the demands of work, life, older relatives and ND kids take their toll it gets more tiring and harder for us both.

you described above "a dynamic of of minimisation, dismissiveness, neglect..." in your relationship. You often describe situation that read as abusive. All I (and I think @SquirrelSoShiny) are saying is that this isn't inevitable in a relationship with someone who has ASD. I'm very much not dismissing your assessment that there are fundamental and very difficult problems with your marriage, what I'm saying is that it's unreasonable to blame it on ASD. Doing that perpetuates negative tropes and stereotypes about autism.

Try, as a thought experiment, re-reading parts of these threads, but every time someone blames ASD replace it with a different protected characteristic that also has a lot of negative stereotypes associated with it. See if that makes comfortable reading. Then see if you can understand why some people find a lot of this thread so offensive.

Can you try to stop telling people on this thread that they are wrong?

It is incredibly rude and dismissive. It is saying that you know better than them what they are living thorough, and what their partner is like and why their partner is like that. You know nothing about any of this, nothing at all.

@SpringerLink nobody, or at least I has ever suggested it is inevitable that a relationship breakdown with an ASC partner is inevitable. But YOU are dismissing my experiences, and without a hint of irony or awareness, all you can see is YOUR point of view .

Neither have I directly linked ASC to abuse, of course there will be abusive people across the range of NT, ND and MH in society, again it is you who is misinterpreting posters to suit your point of view. FFS as if don't get that ten times a day already.

There is a huge difference between neglect and abuse. Abuse requires at least some cognitive awareness of the harm being done, neglect not so much. The impact may be similar and the same could be said for a whole range of ND and MH conditions. Depression, bipolar and other MH conditions can have very damaging effects but are they abusive, occasionally I'm sure but not necessarily.

One of the key traits of ASC is difficulty with social awareness and social imagination and communication. Pease stop misinterpreting posters and then insist on telling them they wrong.