Married to someone with Aspergers: support thread 5

[Bluebellforest1]

New thread

[Ijsbear]

@RelationshipOrNot

@SpringerLink I'm autistic too and find this thread really helpful. I know that some of my autism-related behaviour is hard to live with (rigidity, meltdowns, needing a high level of tolerance for my own emotional needs while not understanding other people's - although I do try to do this with much more success now than when I was younger and didn't/couldn't). It's helpful to see how the NT partners view certain behaviours or ways of speaking that reflect my own, so that I can avoid behaving like that or apologise and acknowledge why I was hurtful if I do. I wish people would stop trying to censor the thread, and I think it's disingenuous to pretend that a disorder which explicitly involves communication difficulties isn't going to have a negative impact on relationships.

Thank you for your insight and willingness to be open minded @RelationshipOrNot

I mean that sincerely and from the heart. I wish very much that my ex-H was so willing to acknowledge the potential complications that come from a ND - NT relationship and to consciously take them into account, we might not have split up. Which the children would have preferred so much.

Again from the heart, that willingness to learn and grow that youvé shown is one of the best traits anyone can have imo. Somehow I feel rather afraid to write that, expecting a backlash, but I'm going to stick my head above the parapet.

[MineIsBetterThanYours]

Like @MineIsBetterThanYours said someone who is looking like they are acting as a twat is because they are a twat - it could be that they are acting like a twat because of something linked to ASD, but they are still acting like a twat. And acting like a twat might hurt someone - and they are still responsible for this, ASD or not. And they are still responsible for trying not to repeat that if they have any regard for the person that they hurt.

Nowadays I would fully agree with you.
A few years ago, I would have said ‘but if it’s ASD, shouldn’t I give him the benefit of the doubt, give him some allowances and help him instead?’
The balance between holding your boundaries and nit being a twat because you refuse to take into account the specific difficulties your partner has is very hard to find.
imo that’s why we have those threads. Because posters genuinely want to take the ASD into account and support but they are ALSO aware that their partner ‘might be milking it’ (aka yes they have ASD but they are also acting like an arse and can get away with it BECAUSE the poster is giving them some leeway).

I also believe this is the reason why any time someone with ASD comes across this thread, they are getting upset. Because they see people with ASD with ASD behaviour that are not supported/understood. And posters in he other side who are trying to understand in which category the behaviour falls.

And then you have comments like this one (from a Twitter thread from an autistic person - that’s one of her answers)

as an autistic person, I did once it (birthdays) finally became important to me. Things are not important to autistic people purely because they are to other people; we didn't inherit the social defaults everyone else got. we need to figure out the value proposition for ourselves.

From an NT point of view, what I read here is ‘ha ok, So I was right. If you didn’t give me a car is because you dint care enough about me then….’.
But it’s warped into the idea that it’s normal and acceptable because ASD.

[Ijsbear]

been thinking of your post @MineIsBetterThanYours

Completely agree that so many of us have tried, and tried and tried and tried to love our partners and give them what we can, and what they need.

With my ex, I'm quite sure that he didn't milk it. I think he simply is what he is and sees no need to bend for anyone, no matter what - not even when I was curled up in the crash position in the car at 180km/h on the autobahn because he was driving less than a meter from the car in front. We had two small children in the car at the time.

I think myself that some ASD people come on this particular set of threads because theory of mind. They see us being critical or frustrated or in despair with our partners and instinctively take it as a personal criticism of them, even though it most definitely is not. I may be wrong there but after observing for quite some time that's the conclusion I've reached.

Then there are other people with ASD who come here and actually try to see things from the other side, when it honestly can't be easy reading.


as an autistic person, I did once it (birthdays) finally became important to me. Things are not important to autistic people purely because they are to other people; we didn't inherit the social defaults everyone else got. we need to figure out the value proposition for ourselves.

^From an NT point of view, what I read here is ‘ha ok, So I was right. If you didn’t give me a car is because you dint care enough about me then….’.
But it’s warped into the idea that it’s normal and acceptable because ASD^

After being with my ex and living 15 years in a direct-communication culture, I see the autistic person's comment differently. I don't think there was a subtext of 'you didnt care enough about me'. I think literally it's not on this autistic person's radar. They -literally- can't get it unless they saw the direct advantage to themselves. I don't think there was a message to anyone else. When the birthdays became important to them, -then- they took the step (if I am extrapolating correctly) to do birthdays for others. I can't be upset with them for not seeing the relevance, but I would have become upset when, once they are told that it really matters, they still ignored it because that means they're not interested or able to listen to something that matters deeply to other people. It feels selfish, when someone has communicated their reasonable needs clearly, to just ignore it.

[Daftasabroom]

As we are heading towards the thread limit I have started a new thread here. I'll try and get another post in with the link towards the end page 40. I suggest we carry on here until we reach the limit.

[Bluebellforest1]

Thank you @Daftasabroom

[SpringerLink]

@TomPinch

You've made your point. Now please drop it.

You have made your point too. Many people here make the same point over and over again Will you all please drop it, too?

Somehow, I doubt it.

[RelationshipOrNot]

Thank you @Ijsbear for your kind words. I am definitely still not easy to live with, and it's taken several relationships (and finding out I'm autistic) to get to this point of insight. I really do find these threads so helpful and learn new things from them all the time. I'm sorry to hear of your ex-partner's behaviour and lack of insight into it/care about how it affected you.

I wonder whether male autistic partners are less likely to try to "do the work" in terms of looking at their behaviour within their relationships? Just because of the generally higher expectation of emotional labour from women, and because we are socialised to smooth things over and perform relationship upkeep. Not in all cases, of course, and no disrespect intended to the men on this thread who clearly do a huge amount of emotional labour and make great efforts to understand their partners, sometimes receiving little reciprocity.

[Ijsbear]

I wonder whether male autistic partners are less likely to try to "do the work" in terms of looking at their behaviour within their relationships? Just because of the generally higher expectation of emotional labour from women, and because we are socialised to smooth things over and perform relationship upkeep.

I suspect you're right. I think that in many (~certainly~ not all) relationships, NT or ND, it's the women who do most of the emotional heavy lifting!

[MineIsBetterThanYours]

I think the way we interpreted our partner’s actions is really dependent on who they are as a person.
My DH has responded very well both clear boundary setting and giving a very clear message on how his behaviour makes me feel. But I appreciate that this will not be the case for everyone (eg ds doesn’t respond as well).

And YY to the influence of our society too.
eg DH was convinced that it was obvious I would stop working once we had dcs…. He never talked about it, never mentioned it, just organised his life on that assumption … which then of course made MY life very hard work. Never mind that I was actually better qualified than him and clearly enjoyed my job. Or that I never ever mentioned stopping work but rather talked about finding a nursery etc…. Or that his mum carried on working (she is a farmer! Farmers never stop working!).

[Ijsbear]

agreed I think it depends on the person too. From what I've read, people who accept they are autistic and that that means some differences in relational styles from NT peole, do better in a ND/NT relationship than people who won't accept it.

But then of course they have to -want- to compromise to a degree, and meet half way. I suppose after that you have to look at if they -can-.

[Daftasabroom]

@MineIsBetterThanYours DW definitely has some very rigid ideas, and of course cannot or will not discuss them. This is particularly true with the people she closest to, i.e. me and her family - she simply cannot understand why we would feel any different to her. There were some comments up-thread on how some of our partners see us as extensions of themselves.

[Daftasabroom]

people who accept they are autistic and that that means some differences in relational styles from NT people, do better in a ND/NT relationship than people who won't accept it.

This^, plus I am sure that for any ND or MH condition the sooner it is diagnosed the better, I suspect that many behaviours and personality traits are more and more difficult to change as a person ages.

[Gioia1]

@Ijsbear i agree with this comment. When I was actively having a miscarriage with fresh red blood dripping everywhere whilst on the phone to my brother who’s a midwife and he trying to comfort my my H who is ND (adhd&asd) just carried on whistling a song. He even dropped me at the hospital without asking any questions.
When I got home that evening he said “what a shame such a terrible thing should happen to you” and when I asked him how it was he could make such a comment he simply stated that that was the most empathetic thing who could think of.

Also my frustration at the relationship he takes so much as a criticism of him that it’s impossible to talk about a problem or find ways to solve it so next time it’s not an issue.

As has eloquently been put by a pp it’s only when a nd accepts that there are and will be complications in alla ne/nt relationship can there be a moving forward as a team

[MineIsBetterThanYours]

@Daftasabroom

people who accept they are autistic and that that means some differences in relational styles from NT people, do better in a ND/NT relationship than people who won't accept it.

This^, plus I am sure that for any ND or MH condition the sooner it is diagnosed the better, I suspect that many behaviours and personality traits are more and more difficult to change as a person ages.

Yes mainly because they are left to find ways of coping in their own, Wo understanding WHY things are happening so the ways of coping they find aren’t always suitable.
Sometimes they work, sometimes they work for them but not for the people around them and sometimes they don’t work at all.

But Wo feedback, it’s hard to gauge, for anyone.

[MineIsBetterThanYours]

@Gioia1 ((hugs))

From his reaction to the death of his grand parents, I can actually see ds saying something like this. :(

[Ijsbear]

Im so sorry @Gioia1. The whistling and getting on with other stuff - how utterly hurtful

When I got home that evening he said “what a shame such a terrible thing should happen to you” and when I asked him how it was he could make such a comment he simply stated that that was the most empathetic thing who could think of.

This gave me a jolt because it is so inadequate to a grieving woman, and yet he was trying. The pity of the whole thing :( he was trying, you were in need, and the two of you could not connect, but you -needed- support!

Yes mainly because they are left to find ways of coping in their own, Wo understanding WHY things are happening so the ways of coping they find aren’t always suitable.

Yes. My oldest (ASD) is intensely empathetic but doesn't know the ways to show it often. I feel extremely lucky that from age 12 onwards, when things were going dangerously wrong, we have had good help and he is slowly learning the rules and ways of coping with his distress. It will never be easy for him (and I hate to see how hard things are for him, it's heartbreaking) and he's going to make some bad blunders along the way, but he has a good, perhaps very good chance of learning how to navigate a NT world. Without that help .... .I don't like to think what would happen, he was showing some really bad behaviour. Not from malice, but by not knowing the rules of social interaction.

[Gioia1]

Thank you.

While it may come across like that i.e that he was trying, I don’t believe for a sec he was.(he deliberately doesn’t fuel the car because according to him” I won’t pay for you to drive around seeing friends”, he’s being tracking me for months now, I only just found the gps tracker, when I asked him about it in front of two friends of his -{ I’ve learnt to have witnesses around if I asking an important question} he had the chutzpah to say “yes I’ve been tracking you with an accuracy of up to 500m”}

But I do myself a disfavour if I continually keep account of the many unkind things said and done.

He is neither in therapy or medicated or seeking any sort of help. He simply refuses. So he has maladaptive ways of coping with life in general.

These days I just shrug my shoulders

[SquirrelSoShiny]

@Gioia1 Why are you with him?

[AutismUnderstandingPlease]

With respect @Gioia1 none of the appalling behaviours that you’ve listed are autistic traits. He sounds awful but really cruel and also aware he is behaving badly really are not autistic traits. And even if he is autistic, it is not autism that is making him behave like that.

But im not surprised you’ve reached this conclusion from reading these threads. A consistent theme of these threads seems to be that it is fine to attribute any bad behaviour to autism, and any of us who do question are simply autistic people with communication difficulties who have taken everything out of context. That in itself shows the level of contempt and ignorance we have to battle every day.

But @Gioia1 i hope you find the courage to leave this hideous man as no-one deserves to be treated like that - by anyone.

[Gioia1]

@AutismUnderstandingPlease
Don’t ever make the mistake again of thinking you know what conclusion I’ve drawn from reading this thread.

[AutismUnderstandingPlease]

@Gioia1

wow - what an aggressive and ableist response. I was actually empathising with your situation but just pointing out that what you are attributing to autism are not recognised traits.How you thought I was invalidating you I genuinely don’t understand. I said this: i hope you find the courage to leave this hideous man as no-one deserves to be treated like that - by anyone

But given you are comparing us to pigs - the full quote for those that don’t know is Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it. I think it is very clear you have a pretty low opinion with us.

And ps - not all autistic/NT relationships are bad - this thread is not a representation at all. This can be observed by NTs coming on to say just this and getting told they are “banging on”. I think some people really need to look inside themselves as there is a lot of hate.

This autistic “pig” will bow out now.

[MineIsBetterThanYours]

@Gioia1 from my NT perspective, the tracking is creepy as fuck and illegal.
im pretty sure that, in his own mind, he thinks he has good reasons for it but it doesn’t mean that he gets a free pass to do stuff that is illegal.
Im wondering if pointing out that to him would make him realise how bad it is.

Having spent 20+ years in an NT/ASD relationship, I’ve learnt one thing. It’s not because the behaviour can be explained by ASD that it is acceptable or that, as the NT partner, we have to compromise.
Doing something illegal is, for me, going too far. So should be putting someone in danger (eg dc).

If there is one thing I’d change from how I reacted initially was to accept to see DH putting the dcs in danger ‘because he couldn’t see the risks for the dcs because it wasn’t that dangerous for him’…

Its hard though. So many times, we have been told that we needed to be kind. That things are so hard for the person with ASD. That we, as NT, need to out ourselves in their shoes and understand.
For me at least, it created some sort of co dependence situation where I ended up supporting him doing stuff that just weren’t acceptable because ‘be kind’…..

I also don’t think that the line ‘but people with ASD aren’t awful. It’s nit because of the ASD, it’s because they are twats’ helps either.
Because even though my own DH behaviours were hurtful and aren’t acceptable, they ALSO never felt abusive or coming from a bad place. Hard to explain but basically it was hurtful and inappropriate but nit spiteful if that makes sense. And THAT makes it much harder again because we know it’s nit them being an arse or being ‘bad people’.

I so wish that things could be as simple as what you describe @AutismUnderstandingPlease . Because tbh I never found them to be as easy as that.

[MineIsBetterThanYours]

Btw I would hope that not all NT/ASD relationships are bad.

But on the relationship board of MN, what you hear about are the ones who don’t work well, REGARDLESS of whether they are NT/NT, NT/ASD or ASD/ASD.
Thats pretty normal, that’s what those places are for.

No one would think that ALL NT/NT relationships are awful form reading those here so why would anyone think that all NT/ASD relationships are bad from the few threads on here???

[AutismUnderstandingPlease]

so why would anyone think that all NT/ASD relationships are bad from the few threads on here???

• because of the title - which doesn’t say troubled marriages, it just says “married to someone with Asperger’s?”
• because I’ve seen many others from other threads refer to this thread “to see what it’s really like being married to an autistic person”
• because any NT person who says that they experienced otherwise is accused of “banging on” about their perspective and is made to feel unwelcome. That they are invalidating the NT who does have a problem with an autistic partner.
• Because autistic people who reasonably try to point out that some of the traits being attributed to autism aren’t so yet then the autistic person is hounded off the thread and an accused of derailing, invalidating, not being aware of our own social deficiencies, not having any empathy
• because 99% of this thread is negative about autistic partners - at least 50% want to leave. You even get those coming on who have already left their partners to have a go at their ex

perhaps if the thread title said something like “in a difficult relationship with an autistic person, support here” it would be better

and then perhaps if the opening paragraph notes that this was not meant to reflect all NT/ASC relationships, but was a support for NTs who were struggling, then maybe it would be fairer.

all I know is I find the depiction of autistic people on this thread extremely upsetting (yes I know I can hide them, but if people had always taken that approach then no social injustices/prejudices could ever be resolved). I also really worry for my autistic children as I see the hate they are going to face from some people due mostly to ignorance. My two wonderful, kind, sensitive, extremely empathetic autistic children.

I genuinely do not mean to invalidate anyone’s experience of abuse - all abuse carried out by any neurotype is absolutely unacceptable. But I know I’m going to get beaten up by you all for saying this.