Married to someone with Aspergers: support thread 5

[Bluebellforest1]

New thread

@SpringerLink I'm autistic too and find this thread really helpful. I know that some of my autism-related behaviour is hard to live with (rigidity, meltdowns, needing a high level of tolerance for my own emotional needs while not understanding other people's - although I do try to do this with much more success now than when I was younger and didn't/couldn't). It's helpful to see how the NT partners view certain behaviours or ways of speaking that reflect my own, so that I can avoid behaving like that or apologise and acknowledge why I was hurtful if I do. I wish people would stop trying to censor the thread, and I think it's disingenuous to pretend that a disorder which explicitly involves communication difficulties isn't going to have a negative impact on relationships.

@RelationshipOrNot 👏👏👏

@RelationshipOrNot just to be clear my ASC DS and NT DS are cackling away like a couple of hyaenas, quite possibly my favourite sound in the world.

"Try, as a thought experiment, re-reading parts of these threads, but every time someone blames ASD replace it with a different protected characteristic that also has a lot of negative stereotypes associated with it. See if that makes comfortable reading. Then see if you can understand why some people find a lot of this thread so offensive"

@SpringerLink 🙌🙌Absolutely 100% spot on. But they won't because the optics would absolutely stink. Autistics are one of the few groups where there's no consequences for ripping into people based on their neurotype, unlike other protected characteristics.

With comments from PP like "without a hint of irony or awareness, all you can see is YOUR point of view" it's genuinely hilarious because the real irony here is that the only point of view they can see is THEIR own.

No one is claiming that there aren't difficulties navigating a relationship where there are differing neurotypes. The point that the actually autistic people are making is that these things being claimed aren't necessarily due to autism. But the neurotypicals are here to tell us that's wrong, and they know more about autism than we do. Because they have an autistic partner or children, so that definitely makes them more knowledgeable than an autistic person themselves. The ableism on this thread absolutely reeks and I'm amazed that Mumsnet think this is OK. I wonder what groups such as the National Autistic Society would make of this? Pretty sure I know what the answer would be.

I'm autistic and so is my fiance. I've noticed there is a tendency on MN for some posters to conflate unpleasant or even outright abusive behaviour with autism - there are so many emotional abuse threads in which a poster will try to "understand" the abusive partner by asking OP to consider if he "might be on the spectrum". I find this upsetting on a personal level, but it also leaves me worried for the women who buy into this, because they're conditioning themselves to tolerate abuse. Seeking support over miscommunications etc. is one thing, but I do think some posters need to be aware that unkind behaviour =/= autism.

@SpidersAreShitheads

@SpidersAreShitheads as has been pointed out, abusive behaviour is not the exclusive realm of the NT community and you really have stepped over that line. Abuse away, abuse away.

Delurking to suggest that a lot of the behaviours that look to be causing the most distress but also the most controversy sound like they're caused by alexithymia (is it fair to define that as an impaired ability to feel, describe or understand emotions when compared to the average person?). From what I've read, many but by no means all autistic people have alexithymia (a quick google shows reputable looking sources giving figures between 20% and 85%). Those that don't, likely feel distress when people talk as if this set of symptoms is an integral part of autism but at the same time it is common enough that in discussions such as these, many partners will have experienced it in the context of a relationship with an autistic person (to a far greater extent than is experienced in relationships between two non-autistic people - looks like around 10% of all people have alexithymia). Might it be an idea to use the term more often?

@ugifletzet there are many threads elsewhere on MN correlating selfish and abusive behaviour with undiagnosed ASC and I completely agree that many of them are ignorant in the extreme. There are even more touting autism as the reason for every developmental delay and advance in children and toddlers. Again really not helpful.

But this thread is unique in that it focuses on long term relationships. The long term posters here try really hard to limit discussion to our own others partners, but a lot of also have ND children and extended family so we are more aware than most of some of the characteristics of autism.

Many of of us vent our frustration at a time of high emotion and to have those emotions dismissed and taken out of context in exactly the same way as the original cause is actually really abusive.

But, and this in my opinion is the point that is being missed repeatedly, this thread isn't for the National Autistic Society, it's for those struggling with the behaviour of their partners with ASD. I have actually stopped posting on here as it appears my opinion after a 15 year relationship with a man with ASD is invalid. Despite the fact I have full on Cassandra syndrome and probable PTSD from it, someone always pops up to tell me that I'm wrong and offensive and my posts get deleted.

I don't give a shiny shite what the National Autistic Society thinks, I want someone to ready what I write and understand, and reply back that they feel the same or the same thing happened to them and make me feel like I'm not alone. I don't need another person with ASD telling me I'm wrong. I've just had 15 years of that and surely the whole point is that people with ASD, ADHD (which I actually have myself) etc and NTs see things differently? I wish everyone could just accept that and leave us alone in what is supposed to be a safe space for those with partners who have ASD.

Another way to look at it.

Many people will say that living with someone with depression can be really hard. Or people who have a chronic illness/disability.
And Tbf it is (I have a chronic illness that has left me disabled). Even though it’s probably true that my quality of life is crap and I’m the one who ‘suffers’ the most from that illness, it would be wrong to not acknowledge the impact it has on my partner.

So why is it not ok to say that living with someone on the spectrum can be/is hard?

I see what you're saying. Another of my frustrations with the MN relationships board is how quick some posters are to advise the OP to dump their partner, based on a vent that is most likely to be a snapshot of their frustrations with a particular behaviour at a particular time, and not a picture of their relationship as a whole. As I said, my partner and I are both autistic, but our autism affects us in different ways and sometimes my problems are difficult for him to cope with (and vice versa). Sometimes we need our separate spaces to offload. I respect that, and I'd never begrudge it to anyone else.

When it comes to practical advice and support, I do think that sometimes it can be helpful to try and assess if the problem is truly rooted in autism or if it is more complicated. @allthegoddamntime brought up alexithymia, which is a good example. It's more prevalent in autistic people than in the general population, but it's also a common feature of depression. Autistic people are statistically more likely to be depressed, which may at least partially account for the increased incidence. My partner does struggle to name his own emotions, but he can usually manage OK providing I ask precise questions. However, at particularly painful times of his life when he hit a real low point, that difficulty was magnified to the point where he just couldn't find any words for feelings. He ended up having debilitating migraines that confined him to bed, which the doctor thought were connected to his inability to express his emotions. So I know that this particular set of problems was depression aggravating autism. With care and treatment the situation got much better, because unlike his 'pure' autistic traits, those difficulties owed more to the situation than to his way of thinking. Sometimes even those of us who are very familiar with autism make the mistake of going, "Oh, that's the ASD" and not looking further. I've fallen into that trap myself before now in my old job as a special school teacher, despite having both personal knowledge and professional expertise, so I don't mean to belittle anyone's experiences by highlighting this - I just find it's a useful thing to keep in mind.

It's not necessarily either-or. If the beach is quieter/less crowded/more secluded than the pool, I could see why sensory difficulties might cause him to go there instead. In the past I used to try to tolerate overwhelming environments for my loved ones' sake, but it would end with me biting my hands to shreds because the sensory overload was physically painful and stopped me from being able to even think straight. This is why I don't volunteer to take my nephews and nieces on trips to noisy environments. However, I'll happily take them to other places they enjoy that are bearable for me. This is what he needs to do - if he really can't cope with the pool (and it's not just a question of him preferring the beach) he needs to find activities/locations that the kids enjoy and he can tolerate. Not to do so is selfish, even if he has good reason for not using the pool.

Taken on its own, your partner asking you to transfer money might potentially be connected to autism (he might see it as a purely logistical/practical request and not realise that it was inappropriate time to ask - this is something I'd struggle with). However, with the best will in the world I can't see how spending £6k on himself and then asking your son to pay for the T-shirt is connected to autism. This additional context means the request for the bank transfer does come across as stingy too. I would be upset if my partner did that to me.

Yes but there is another side to that. which are the need of the children.

Are we saying that a child who loves the swimming pool and is looking forward to spend hours there in hols shouldn’t get that because daddy doesn’t like noise and prefers to be on his own on the beach?
Or that mummy has to shoulder ALL the child stuff because it happens that daddy ‘can’t cope with children’s activities’ (which lets be honest are often noisy when they are little).

What about the case like myself where I am physically limited to what I can do and DH is in the spectrum. Should our children have been told that their option is to stay at home all weekend?
Or that I was the one to always go well over my threshold (which then affected my health) because he didn’t like noise?

I’ll be honest, my experience is that men who are on the spectrum (I include a few people there that are close to me, incl my own ds) have absorbed the toxic sexist rules of our culture. They are also very black and white. Which means that the issues encountered by women living with them are way magnified compare to those who are living with NT men.
And that often makes the situation unbearable. But you can’t even say they are ‘nasty’, twats etc… I know DH took YEARS to actually realise how skewed his view of my role and his role within the family was. It wasn’t coming from a bad place. But from a total non understanding of ‘rules’ (and inability to read the room, understand what I was telling him etc etc etc).

I shouldn’t have had to parent him in that way (and why I stayed is a whole other thread tbh)

Also worth remembering in all those discussions that a behaviour might not be abusive for it to FEEL abusive for the person on the receiving end.

I'm actually really supportive of these threads in principle it's just painful to read such unhappiness and wonder, is this poor person putting up with being treated like shit when they would be happier walking away?

For me the key is:

• Has the partner been diagnosed with autism? Or are they someone acting like an asshole and either hiding behind self-diagnosed autism or a well meaning partner who is excusing them as they might possibly have Asd. (I said upthread about a man I spoke to who spent a decade being a complete prick to people, like literally saying, 'You're fucking annoying me, I have autism, fuck off' and he was gutted to be told, you don't have autism. It must have been truly painful to have to look at his behaviour through new eyes.)
• Are they willing to engage with you, their partner, to find solutions? So I hate crowds and the compromise is that I limit myself to specific key events rather than doing a whole day of events. I know my limits better now.
• It is okay for you to feel that this relationship is not working for you and to ask for change or walk away. This is the case regardless of whether your husband has autism / adhd / whatever.

One of the reasons I finally sought diagnosis was because things were falling apart including my marriage. Sometimes seeing what's at stake is the wake up call that's needed.

Wait. Wtf just happened? Was that poster not real?

I started writing a thread ... walked away ... finished it and hit post. Now the post is gone 🤦‍♀️

Way to waste our time, loser 🙄

The thing is though, with things like children's activities that are loud, that the autistic partner may not be able to tolerate them. It's not a choice, where they could grit their teeth and deal with it. In a similar situation I would need to leave, or I would break down in public. It wouldn't get any easier the second or third or thousandth time. So yes, if both parents are unable to do it (for physical OR mental reasons, one shouldn't be prioritised over the other), then the children would have to miss out, unless there's someone else like an aunt/uncle/grandparent who could take them, or if the parents could afford paid childcare. It's just an unfortunate reality, not the autistic parent being nasty or selfish. I think people should be very honest with themselves about whether they really want to be parents and what it involves - I won't be, partly because I know that I couldn't make those kinds of sacrifices, like enduring loud environments and not having lots of time and space to myself. I agree that a lot of men (autistic or not) don't think so hard about these potential sacrifices as they just assume that the children's mother will deal with the parts that they don't want to.

@MineIsBetterThanYours As I said in my post, I'm not talking about simple likes and dislikes. If you dislike the pool but your children love it, it's absolutely your responsibility to take them there, I agree. I'm talking about actual inability to cope with a particular environment, where it's not "I don't want to" but "I can't". I also said that if the dad can't manage the pool, it's his responsibility to find some other way he can entertain the kids. That way it wouldn't all fall on the mum. I think kids are capable of understanding that disability can limit what a loved one can do - my maternal grandma was a wheelchair user who couldn't walk at all, and even as a very little girl I grasped that this meant she couldn't go on the swings with me. But going to stay with her was still a huge treat, because she always had other activities planned and I never felt that she was anything other than loving and caring.

I’ve been writing an answer several times as I am finding it hard to put my point across clearly (and in a succinct ish way!).

Reading the last posts, it’s like the answer to an issue is quite black and white. Either it’s the person being a twat or it’s ASC. When I look back at the 20+ years with DH, it’s nothing like that. Rather every single issue we’ve had had been a mix. A mix of

• ASD


• him being a twat


• Circumstances


• society expectations/sexism


• personal history eg DH was bullied as a teen


• Parenting (his)

Some times, the autism has clearly been the issue. Some times, I’d say he was mainly being a twat. But more often than not, the two were so entertwined that it was impossible to know if he was just a twat or autism was to ‘blame’ (using that word very loosely there).

eg a few years ago, before covid, I made a very specific request to DH because the way he was doing things were hurtful to me. He repeatedly said OK and then never followed on that request. Which of course was then another thing to be hurt about. He was a twat there right? It wasn’t something impossible for him to do btw.
Then covid happened and DH started to work from home.
Suddenly DH started to actually follow on that request. He wasn’t as tense, frustrated and angry. He became much nicer to live with despite circumstances that weren’t good (both his mum and dad had massive health issues).
What was the difference? It turns out that he was working in an open plan office with another 150 people! This meant he was coming home stressed out and overwhelmed and ANYTHING that was asked from him at home just… didn’t happened.
So was his behaviour just him being a twat or was it the consequence of the autism, the circumstances he was in? A nice mix of all of it Imo.

And I think that’s what happens on these threads. For any issue there isn’t a straight answer ‘he is being an arse vs it’s the autism’. Posters are getting hurt and they are trying to suss out if it’s more the person being an arse or really more down to the autism. Some people will see only autism (the swimming example being a good one). Some people will take it personally and feel the person is an arse. And the reality might be that it’s actually in between - someone who struggles with noise (ASD) but could cope with that level of noise for an hour but decides they won’t make the effort, even for their dc (Arse).

@MineIsBetterThanYours In my response to the PB poster who asked whether it's "autism or selfishness", my first words were, "It's not necessarily either-or." How is that black and white? As for my last post, that was in response to a rather black and white, binary hypothetical you set up yourself (e.g. whether a cognitively disabled dad should get to push certain tasks onto a physically disabled mum). I get the feeling that now I've disclosed having autism myself, you might be reading what you expect to read in my posts (concrete thinking) rather than what I actually said. Autistic thinking does tend to be very precise, but that doesn't logically mean the outcome is always black and white. And yes, we can be as generous or as selfish as any other human - we have the full range of personality traits and I would never dispute that. I do agree with much of what you say in your clarifying post.

You see, my last post was not in answer to any specific post but as a way to explain why I think those threads are so important and to highlight something that is very often trotted out - that someone who is looking like they are acting as a twat is because they are a twat and it has nothing to do autism.

i tried to explain that earlier on but clearly my example had derailed stuff hence I went back to the drawing board.

Quite a few things have been posted, and I want to try to put my point across better:

1. I am definitely not minimising or dismissing people who are recounting awful behviour and difficulties in their relationships. I very much believe you that you are having serious issues, and that this is awful to experience. However, I am questioning the inevitable link with ASD and the presumption that this type of problem is a feature of relationships with people with ASD. It really isn't. As PP has said up-thread, it might be very uncomfortable to acknowledge this, but that doesn't excuse generalising in a simplistic way that suggests that all relationships with someone with ASD are beset by the same problems or caused by the fact one partner is neurodiverse.
2. As @SquirrelSoShiny has said really clearly, the issue isn't how much your partner can or can't work out by them self, it's about how they respond to being told that things aren't working. People have said that they see thins as breaking down into "can't" change and "won't" change. And I absolutely agree, that sometimes you "can't" deal with the issue because too much of your resources are taken up with other things (like the example of the job with too much social interaction). But then you do have to ask yourself if that is reasonable to expect your partner to only get the worst of you, and why it's ok to be using up your best self at work and not keeping anything for the person/people that is most important to you. And if you won't think about that, or won't accept that you need to adjust your life to make space for your life partner's needs, that is not OK. And if it's that the person won't change, that's also a choice that fails to value their partner as a equal, and that is clearly also not OK.
3. As to the questions of autism/arsehole or autism/selfish - I absolutely agree that its complicated. My only point is that having ASD doesn't excuse either selfishness or being an arse - it might mean someone has to explain more carefully and in more detail what the problem is or their expectations are. But just because one partner has ASD doesn't mean that they will be selfish, unkind, unpleasant or fail to consider their partner's needs.

Hopefully what I'm saying is pretty clear - having ASD does not make you into a bad partner in a relationship any more than being NT makes you a good one. Both sides have to work to understand each other - just like in any relationship. Good relationships between ND/NT and ND/ND partners exists, and work, and can be loving and supportive in both directions.

And I would stand by what I've said, conflating or blaming ASD for the issues that a lot of people describe here is offensive whether you can see that perspective or not.

Like @MineIsBetterThanYours said someone who is looking like they are acting as a twat is because they are a twat - it could be that they are acting like a twat because of something linked to ASD, but they are still acting like a twat. And acting like a twat might hurt someone - and they are still responsible for this, ASD or not. And they are still responsible for trying not to repeat that if they have any regard for the person that they hurt.

As other posters have said, as you work with your limitations and work around them to do the best you can. It's not OK to use it as an excuse to be a twat, to be unkind or to keep on hurting someone you are in a relationship with. Not doing that is a choice, it's not a part of having ASD or in any way inevitable.

You've made your point. Now please drop it.