horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

Hear Hear

I agree there is a terrible anti trans tendency on MN.

Almost every thread on the subject will get hijacked and turned into a " safe space " debate.

I have been reduced to tears reading some of the horrible ignorant comments and opinions.

I used to try to argue a point but its exhausting.

I fear for my DC going out in the world with some of the attitudes on here.

Why would you expect everyone to have the same belief system as you?
I'm sure you would object to being told to believe in a religion
I haven't ever seen a GC poster refer to women as Karen's. I see women on here objecting to that term
Personally I am happy for people to live as they like but there is a clash of rights because I want single sex spaces for me and my children and I want the right to request a female HCP
The obsession with 'passing' is damaging imo. I think it would be much healthier if people accepted and celebrated their reality
I would be happy for there to be third, unisex spaces

I don’t think anyone on MN objects to watchful waiting for kids, but many of us object to the pathologising of a normal and necessary process (puberty), telling children their healthy bodies are “wrong”, sterilising kids who are overwhelmingly likely to grow out of their feelings of dysphoria but are disproportionately same sex attracted and/or autistic, and leaving them infertile, asexual, with weak bones and at greater risk of heart disease and certain cancers.

I know, it’s monstrous of us.

It's obviously a very multi faceted issue that many people feel strongly about. It's also no without basis that some parents have questionable motivations, a clinician at the Tavistock was recorded as saying that homophobia was present in some parents who wanted their child 'fixed'.

I've never read it being said that all parents are homophobic and I've also seen a lot of support offered to parents whose children are experiencing gender dysphoria.

I think sometimes, when you are sensitive about something, you can over generalise also.

Lastly, the pronouns thing is a slippery slope, as eventually all trans identified paedophiles and rapists end up demanding to be called 'she' and there crimes recorded as women's crimes. Whilst the pronoun usage can seem benign, when there is a kick back, it is generally for this reason, rather than just to be nasty.

*their

is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

Why wouldn't it be?
You are not personally attacking an individual and just stating your opinion the same way as GC posters.
I doubt you will be jumped on or called all the bastards but if you post on a public forum then other pov and opinions are to be expected.

It seems like you want MNHQ to sensor all posters who do not agree with you. Hopefully MNHQ will not agree to do that.

GC posters are constantly attacked. They have been pushed in to only posting on the FWR boards and are targeted on an almost daily basis.

What hermione said. Basically I think that it would be much better if kids were helped to feel comfortable with the body they have (because that is reality) than trying to change their body (with permanent and damaging side effects). There is no evidence of a long term benefit to taking puberty blockers etc. But if I say this I’m called ‘transphobic’. The truth can be uncomfortable to deal with, but it is the truth nonetheless. Humans can’t change sex and they can’t be born in the wrong body. They can wear what they want and no one in 2021 should still be feeling constrained by gender stereotypes. A personality that doesn’t match gender stereotypes doesn’t mean some one has something wrong with their body that needs fixing. Why can’t a girl play football, wear trousers, have short hair and still be a girl - we aren’t Victorians? I can’t believe we’ve regressed so far in terms of busting sex stereotypes.

I think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s and everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, or a third space. There you go, that wasn't hard.

People talk about lots of other 'groups' of parents in disparaging ways, your not special for that. Just take a look at the step parenting section! 😂😂

You're

Try breast versus bottle.

Then things get truly heated!

If you spot generalisations and transphobia you can report it

Repeat offenders are banned

But women must be allowed to discuss some of the harmful aspects snd consequences and alternative approaches to affirmative action

As an adult who went through a difficult time through my teens, called myself David ( no one else did!) I knew that I was a boy, I am very grateful it was in a different era. The relative ease of transition & the online support today would have changed my life path and not I fear for the better. I appreciate we can't turn back the clock , so we need to move forward.

Generalisations about the transphobia of Mumsnet or feminists won't help us move forward

I think sometimes gender critical people (of which I am one) can be too certain in assuming bad faith and I'm sorry if you feel you're being unfairly accused of having munchausens or being homophobic.

I think it can be easy, sometimes, to confuse the symptom with the cause. To blame parents and children caught up in this ideology for the ideology itself.

But, no matter whether you like it or not, I'm afraid it's clear to a lot of us that you're caught up in a movement that exhibits cult-like thinking and which is a medical scandal unfolding in front of us.

It's like watching a slow car crash, and it's really hard to just look the other way, because we can see so clearly that it's children who stand to be harmed - even when parents like you are acting in good faith. The High Court has already ruled children can't consent to this. (Yesterday's ruling doesn't change that).

Many families were convinced, no so long ago, that lobotomy was the best treatment for their relatives and no doubt many believed it. It doesn't make it true.

If you spend time looking at the evidence, then there is no evidence that childhood medical transition does what it's claimed to do, long term (improve lives / prevents suicide / helps with dysphoria) and there's a lot of evidence it does harm, to bones, likely brain development, sexual function, fertility etc.

If you are supporting your child to medically transition, please take some time to really support detransition, to look further into the future than the next few years.

r/detrans on Reddit is often eye opening, for example: www.reddit.com/r/detransition/

Are you aware that many butch lesbians went through a phase of thinking they were boys, then growing of it? I'm assuming your child is AFAB. How do you know the real issue here isn't pressures on young women to conform to societies' expectations? Should children lose their fertility and risk never being able to have a functional sexual relationship as an adult (because of damage from transition) because they don't conform to societies norms?

Sorry, that sentence makes no sense! It shoudl say:

f you are supporting your child to medically transition, please take some time to really research detransition, to look further into the future than the next few years.

The thing is we have free speech. You might not like hearing people disagree with you, but that doesn’t mean they hate you. I feel great sympathy for you, your dc and others in a similar situation. But I am allowed to say that I think it’s wrong to pretend to a child that they are actually the opposite sex, I’m not saying it out of hate but because there is no evidence that it will help your child.

Yes its really hard when people talk theoretically or in general terms about something very personal. My son has SEN and there are often threads and comments that are awful. Some are reportable but most are too general and it is exhausting reading them.
I think when talking about issues people forget how desperate parents are when their children are distressed and how there is zero help and when you do speak to a professional and they make a suggestion and it help your child you grab at it and it doesnt make you evil.
Despite all this i am very keen on safeguarding and will continue to point out safeguarding issues.

You can say what you want about gender critical parents and we are free to disagree with you.
The motivations of parents who affirm their children as trans are perfectly acceptable points of discussion here. You are free to disagree with them. You don't have the right not to hear opinions you don't like. None of us do.

It’s interesting this debate for me on two areas one I grew up in the 80s It’s a sin was my life. My male friends were wearing dresses and more slap than Boots makeup counter no one thought they wanted to be female they were boys who wore makeup and dresses so what ? There was a bit of discord with skinheads etc but really people just seemed more relaxed then than now about people being themselves. Also it is true no one can change sex it’s impossible gender yes sex no and another point chest feeding WTF jeez it’s just too mental

I understand that there are kids out there who identify as all sorts of things, I accept that a lot of them are confused and will eventually move on. Of course it is important that they are protected from doing anything irreversible.

However there are kids, teens, young adults, middle aged and senior citizens who are going through hell everyday because they are trans.

Without being able to transition they live a miserable life. Social anxiety , self harm and suicide are sadly common.

This isnt something that people chose, they are born trans.

My own DC has exhibiting trans behaviour from around the age of 4, now a teenager and has not stopped.

There must be a middle ground where everyone can be happy and safe.

There's no middle ground that includes medical transition for under 18s.

I think there’s a bit of confirmation bias going on in the op; I see a LOT of empathy with the parents of trans-identifying or gender non conforming children. Sympathy for the impossibility of the line the parents walk in trying to support their children in such an intense situation, when organisations that should support THEM choose instead to reduce things to headlines about (discredited) suicide risks and (discredited) medical claims. The path that the op says she takes, of watchful waiting, is the path that the gender critical posters here and on other sites tend to advocate.

But Noway, there is evidence that long term transition doesn't actually help. Mild evidence that there is a short term benefit only

That can be a lot of surgery for no gain

We need to find ways to help people long term not provide a temporary sticking plaster

@Nowayhozay

What trans behaviour did your child exhibit at 4?

What evidence do you have that suicide is common among young people with gender dysphoria?

There’s a secret thread?

When my DD was 14 she had waist length blond hair and wore pretty dresses. She’s 17 now and has a shaved head, a face full of piercings, wears platformed DMs and ripped t shirts.

It’s fashion and teenaged tribalism.

The vast majority of trans identified teenaged girls are playing with their identity in the same way and it’s absolutely obscene that it’s being taken so seriously.