horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

@Iamasoulman

So in an ideal world... the one we are moving to hopefully via this little bump on the road... there would be no need to transition to anything because everyone can 'wear' what they like and present how they like. People would just be like 'ok' and move on. This stage may or may not be helping this.
Sadly we are a way off that concluding. Most schools have a strict dress code for example which makes it harder to subvert it to suit as the whole set up is conformity. The argument that it promotes learning and behaviour is really not proven either. So perhaps start there?!?
I feel sad that your aspirations of female life were through clothes being freely available to express yourself. I don't mean that against you..just that your view of women was as limited as your view of men...that life was limited and clothes would set you free. Maybe we should be finding ways to set out children free to fly and set their dreams and imaginations higher. For what its worth, when I was a child I used to dream I'd have the Sindy mansion with full furniture as that represented success and wealth to me. My son dreams of living in a flat with a balcony when he's grown up (we have a huge garden but this represents success to him). Having a wardrobe full of beautiful clothes that represent your personality is an achievable dream for most people. It doesn't need to be unobtainable. We shouldn't be making it so. Hopefully the majority of parents in 2021 could convey that to their children with success. Even better if they also let them get on with it.

I don't really want to pick apart what you've said as I am not a psychologist. I just hope you feel more yourself now you have been able to realise that dream, and I'm sorry you were made to feel ashamed that you felt those thoughts. I think most of us on here are not those kind of parents. But we also have our own baggage/lived experience.

Its been said many many many times... but most women don't dream of a cupboard full of dresses when they grow up maybe because they already have them or because they don't care for dresses or because a million other reasons. I had hardly any clothes as child because it was the 70s and nobody did- but haven't aspired to get any since. So therefore we don't akways understand when you say you felt like a girl because of xyz because those things don't make us feel like girl. Most of us don't ever question our gender, we mostly don't think about it until forced to through life events. Not because we don't feel wrong but more like we don't need to as its a bit like breathing in and out. You just get on with it.

I truly feel for you soulman - it must be so upsetting to feel this way, and I have so much empathy for anyone with dysphoria. I had an eating disorder and body dysmorphia in my teens (well, I will probably always have it to some degree but I’m much better now) and it is soul destroying.

I think though that there are worse things than not passing - if your physical and mental health is destroyed, if your genitalia don’t develop sufficiently to allow surgery if that’s what’s you want, if you change your mind but now find you’re unable to go back, have children etc etc - then you are also condemned to a lifetime of misery and pain, just of a different kind. This just isn’t the solution it’s being painted as, it’s so risky and potentially harmful and what I find so distressing is that women have been trying to raise awareness of the harms of this drug for decades and as always are ignored by the medical community. It seems that now some may be realising the harm done by these drugs, but it will be too late for many by then. Scares the shit out of me.

HeadNorth

“midgedude for heaven's sake, this isn't about you because you are not trans”

The point is that she almost certainly would have been had she been living in our present
culture.

Up to 18 the law protects young people - any drugs will have a devastating impact on their body. After 18 the law says they are an adult - I do however even then think that those make in my this decision are likely to have other issues and that these should be dealt with first. I am not sure it is in their best interests to supply drugs - I think if this treatment were not available easily it would stop many thinking this was a possible path

@ScrollingLeaves

HeadNorth

“midgedude for heaven's sake, this isn't about you because you are not trans”

The point is that she almost certainly would have been had she been living in our present
culture.

Only because the debate is so polarised. If people could be more calm and accepting, it wouldn't back confused young people into a corner. The gender critical claim to care about young people but their languange is so aggressively against anyone experimenting with living in a different gender and all about blaming the parents for doing it wrong. You are just asking young people to take a stand.

So what if a young person wants to present as the opposite gender for a while? If we were all more relaxed, they wouldn't feel forced to stake a position and start medicalising before they were ready. As Imasoulman attests, the vast majority will grow out of it, so really, what is the problem? But here is the shocker - if they do decide to transition, it really is not the worst thing in the world. There is nothing wrong with being trans.

It is far far better to scrap the whole idea of gender and just let people be who they want

As soon as you support them in expressing a gender you are saying /supporting the notion that gender is important . You are supporting the idea that what you are/do depends on ? Your apparent sex?rather than your personality

From my experience, being shown how I could be me within the body I have was far more useful than pretending I could have a different body to solve all my problems

Personal expression and being whatever you want is fine except when it results in medical intervention. I do not believe it's in a persons interests to do this - drugs and surgery harm the body and cause irreversible damage.

I think there are a lot of generalisations here from people feeling judged by 'GC' people.

You will always find brusque, opinionated comments on any social media thread. I'm shocked at how rude some people can be on here to be honest - I'm sure most wouldn't be so blisteringly direct in person! But people are passionate about this topic; we're discussing women's rights and safety, as well as child protection and safeguarding.

People are allowed to express their opinions on topics freely without worrying about annoying people with different views. I just wish all commenters remained civil and respectful. The lack of civil debate on this topic is one of its biggest problems. I have to say, from my experience on Twitter, the lack of civil debate (and outright abuse) comes almost entirely from trans rights activists.

Parents who have decided to support their child towards medical transition won't want to hear dissenting voices because it's uncomfortable. It challenges & questions their decision. But you're going to hear a range of views on a parenting app. There aren't a lot of trans rights activists on MN so the comments are going to be skewed towards a GC point of view.

If you want affirmation for your decision there will be support groups on Facebook & TRA Twitter who will champion your decision to affirm your child's trans identity and support them down a medicalised route. You're unlikely to find that affirmation in a huge group of women who are mothers!

Not sure I like the term gender critical anyway - I am anti-gender! AG

The gender critical claim to care about young people but their languange is so aggressively against anyone experimenting with living in a different gender and all about blaming the parents for doing it wrong. You are just asking young people to take a stand.

You really do just make things up as you go along Head

You have done it throughout this thread.
GC people constantly state the clothes you wear the toys you play with the activities you do mean nothing and do not determine your gender or your sex.

Frankly I am fed up with you blatantly lying on this thread and attempting to silence others.

@LastRoloIsMine

The gender critical claim to care about young people but their languange is so aggressively against anyone experimenting with living in a different gender and all about blaming the parents for doing it wrong. You are just asking young people to take a stand.

You really do just make things up as you go along Head

You have done it throughout this thread.
GC people constantly state the clothes you wear the toys you play with the activities you do mean nothing and do not determine your gender or your sex.

Frankly I am fed up with you blatantly lying on this thread and attempting to silence others.

Wow - those are strong words. I have tried to encourage a more moderate approach on this thread - let children explore, don't judge parents whose children are identifying as trans, try and put yourself in your shoes and think what you would do for your child.

I actually think it is really rude and not on at all to accuse me of blantantly lying. I would report your post, as I can't believe that can be allowed under Mumsnet guidelines, but on balance it is better that it stand so people can read for themselves the unpleasantness directed at anyone that dares to suggest being trans can be OK and is not the worst thing in the world that can happen to someone.

The problem is that people are not allowed to express views and at the phobic allegation is used so frequently to silence differing views. I believe that the law should be stronger to protect children and parents. If the laws stop all types of change and serious consideration of it prior to 18 then parents would not be having to deal with what is essentially the latest trend and rebellion. I believe that by 18 most will have grown out of it - at that stage the law would allow personal choice but the health service is not there for this type of choice. Given how much is now not provided on the NHS I don't believe this should be either.

I don't disagree with you Twelly, the law apparantly prevents medical intervention before 16, but 18 would be better. If that were the case - that there would be no medical intervention before 18 - would you be more comfortable with young people identifying as trans and some of those young people going on to transition as adults?

I believe that by 18 most people will have come to terms with their own identity - its hard growing up and most teenagers have some self-doubt and/or want to rebel etc etc. Post 18 I think the numbers will be smaller - I believe that for most people in this situation there is often underlying issues not related to this wish to change. I don't believe we should be calling young people by their new name or allowing them to use different gender specific toilets/changing rooms as this makes it harder for them to admit they might have been wrong - teenagers find it hard to back down and that is one of main concerns as once they have started on that road it is very hard for them to turn back without lose of face.

let children explore, don't judge parents whose children are identifying as trans, try and put yourself in your shoes and think what you would do for your child.

Parents are not judged for allowing their children to explore and express themselves. They are judged when they claim their 3 yo is trans because he likes the colour pink. Or because they are pushing hormones/puberty blockers/surgery on to young teens.

I actually think it is really rude and not on at all to accuse me of blantantly lying. I would report your post, as I can't believe that can be allowed under Mumsnet guidelines, but on balance it is better that it stand so people can read for themselves the unpleasantness directed at anyone that dares to suggest being trans can be OK and is not the worst thing in the world that can happen to someone

You have lied. You lied early in the thread about a post in FWR regarding political party in Scotland.
You have lied stating GC people don't accept self expression or clothing choice.
Each time you post you state things about GC people that are not true. You do so in the hope that you won't be pulled up on it and you will be believed therefore discrediting GC posters.

Report me all you like there is nothing unpleasant or rude about pointing out your lies and hyperbole.

@HeadNorth

I don't disagree with you Twelly, the law apparantly prevents medical intervention before 16, but 18 would be better. If that were the case - that there would be no medical intervention before 18 - would you be more comfortable with young people identifying as trans and some of those young people going on to transition as adults?

How does the law prevent this? My understanding is that hormone treatment is perfectly legal from quite a young age. Although younger children are no longer deemed gillick competent, parents can give consent, so no court case is needed for those children. Of course loopholes also allow children to access hormones via European based GP services too. Is there legal protection I'm not aware of?

@twelly

I believe that by 18 most people will have come to terms with their own identity - its hard growing up and most teenagers have some self-doubt and/or want to rebel etc etc. Post 18 I think the numbers will be smaller - I believe that for most people in this situation there is often underlying issues not related to this wish to change. I don't believe we should be calling young people by their new name or allowing them to use different gender specific toilets/changing rooms as this makes it harder for them to admit they might have been wrong - teenagers find it hard to back down and that is one of main concerns as once they have started on that road it is very hard for them to turn back without lose of face.

You see, this is the very reason I think the hard line gender critical stance is so dangerous - it forces young people to 'back down' or 'lose face'. If we were more accepting of them experimenting, it would be less of a rebellion and easier to explore, without any entrenched positions.

I do think most children will grow out of it, but the fact is some people are trans. They just are. My family member did not even come out until they were 19 - there had been zero signs before then, no presenting as the opposite gender or playing with their toys. And they do not adopt a gender stereotyped role now - so it is clearly something deeper and more profound than clothes and toys.

I think we have to accept and embrace that some people are trans without fear, then we can supportively parent young people who wish to explore whether or not they might be. Giving parents a hard time and suggesting they are to blame and must have enforced rigid gender sterotypes helps precisely no one.

HeadofNorth “My family member did not even come out until they were 19”

I do not think people are so concerned in cases like yours.

Indeed, but there is a lot of misiniformation and confusion about trans people. There seems to be quite a stereotyped view of how it presents, so it is good to be reminded people don't always fit in the box some have built in their mind for how trans people typically present. More understanding and less judgement is the best way forward for parenting at any age.

There seems to be quite a stereotyped view of how it presents

Can I ask what these stereotypes are?

Earlier up the thread (phew, it's been a long one!) some posters were saying parent's must have brought their child up with rigid gender stereotypes around girls and boys toys and clothes and if the child does not conform labelled them trans. That is not my experience at all - my family is progressive and modern, rigid gender sterotypes are not the norm or encouraged. It is not my experience that any parent would want their child to be trans or push them in that direction - far from it.

And they do not adopt a gender stereotyped role now - so it is clearly something deeper and more profound than clothes and toys.

This is what seems to be so misunderstood. I know masc-presenting trans women and femme-presenting trans men.

There is a difference between being tolerant of how children and teenagers express themselves to wanting to change. Teenagers can and do dress how they want but thst is superficial it is not permanent - this latest trend is in my view a trend. As a teenager of course experimentation takes place - experiment is one thing but I am concerned that the current agenda allows teenagers and young people to move to a more permanent change. Delaying children and teenagers that route is kind in that it ensures teenagers css as my make drastic changes. We need to protect young people and tbh those adult who often seek change are vulnerable they need to be protected.

I think it is healthy to delay medicalisation but misguided to try to push a young person in one direction or another - it just won't work. Therapy and support and letting people present how they wish without fear or judgement is all you can really do - and berating parents with all the things they must have done wrong to make their child feel like this is unproductive and cruel.

I don't believe parents are at fault in fact I think parents are victims as much as the teenagers.

I know twelly, yours has been one of the calm voices on this thread. But parents obviously do feel judged and blamed, and that is sad and unhelpful all round.