horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

@ViolentFern

You are right OP, it's exhausting and every single bloody thread gets taken over by them so everyone else just leaves.

👏🏻👏🏻😊 Agree

I don't bother with FWR because of the obsession with trans issues - no other feminist subject can be discussed without it being dragged in.

As I have a lovely trans family member I also find the militant anti trans stance depressing. No nuance is allowed. For some people living life as the gender they were not born is essential to their mental health and well being. It just is. You can throw all the aggressive facts about you want, but feelings matter too. There is no space allowed to accept and acknowledge that most people are just trying to live their life in the way that works for them.

Being a gender critical feminist will not save you from having a trans child and honestly it is not the worst thing that can happen. There is no love and acceptance, but what else can we really do. People are free to live their own lives and make their own choices.

On the back of this thread I popped back into FWR and lo and behold they are supportng sex pest Alex Salmond's new party. That is not feminism as I understand it.

That isn't true
Many times I have seen support for a third, unisex space. It isn't women arguing against that
A third space would protect single sex spaces and provide a mixed sex space for those who choose to use it

I am a feminist and I certainly was not supporting Alex s on that thread

Cut the crap generalisations trying to smear feminism snd concentrate on thinking how to help parents and children

You know its possible to think Alex Salmond is a creep whilst believing the SNP policies are harmful to women
That's what happens when you consider points separately and engage critical thinking. It's far better than giving all your thinking over to a single group, political party or a cult

There is no obsession, but you do get some disrupters who

spout the same rubbish which people don't let stand , like sex is changeable ,

derail none trans threads making a statement about men to be a statement about TW

, and keep the others running by repeating themselves, often just chanting ah transphobia if they can't think of anything more exciting

Oh and the ones who rock up to try and get screenshots for Twitter or target key long running posters

Don't blame the feminists for being under attack

It's interesting though how a complaint about generalisations is reliant on generalisations

Sittinonthesand Sat 27-Mar-21 09:34:40
What hermione said. Basically I think that it would be much better if kids were helped to feel comfortable with the body they have (because that is reality) than trying to change their body (with permanent and damaging side effects). There is no evidence of a long term benefit to taking puberty blockers etc. But if I say this I’m called ‘transphobic’.
...
That is not transphobic, it's sensible. When they are independent adults they can make more informed choices. The idea of medication and even surgery on youngsters is awful. I would however call somebody a different name if they wanted me to, eg David becomes Diana, and accept wearing different clothes.

There are young people who were allowed to go further whilst still under the care of their parents and have since regretted it, would like to trans back. That's not easy if you've had a mastectomy!

I also think there is too much publicity about the subject. People do not fit into neat little boxes, we can accept that, but childhood/teens are times for enjoying in many ways, not all about gender. It is quite in vogue at the moment to self identify.

I don't think children should be doing anything long term to their bodies that will remove their fertility, I.e. I wouldn't agree with any sort of sterilisation being available to kids.

I imagine it's very difficult finding the best way to support yoir child being gender critical doesn't mean you have trans people, you have misunderstood. It's about ensuring that children are free to experiment with who they are without being forced into long term damage to their body, it's about female children being able to access safe spaces. I wasn't sure if your child is ftm but being GC would also incorporate feeling that they should have their sex in their medical records so if they are rushed to hospital with an ectopic pregnancy the doctors will know to check them vs not know to check.

The OP is complaining specifically about generalisations about parents of trans kids on mumsnet. People who moan about the FWR boards being "vile" and "obsessed with trans issues" are free to give their opinion or not, read them or not.

As a parent of a trans kid my experience of mumsnet is very different and I think its great.

The point is the world is full of different people with different views and for a trans kid life is very difficult. No amount of political pressure and campaigning and calling everyone bigots will change that. If you subscribe to an ideology that disregards scientific fact you can't really get upset if some people have a different view.

@HeadNorth

On the back of this thread I popped back into FWR and lo and behold they are supportng sex pest Alex Salmond's new party. That is not feminism as I understand it.

I had a look and of the 22 posts on that thread, only the OP and one other person (two if you count an ambiguous answer as a positive) seemed in favour, and then only cautiously (OP asked if she was being naive, and the other supporter put it no higher than "promising.)

So when you say "they are supporting" I don't think that's quite right. "They" are having a discussion, with the overwhelming majority opposed.

I think that facts are used aggressively - parents are told repeatedly people can't change sex. Well, duh, most parents aren't stupid and aren't slaves to stereotypes. But they are dealing with real and complex people and a range of emotions and the anti-trans mantras are not helpful or often relevant. Trans people exist and you can't shout them out of existence by using biological facts as the issues are more around feelings. Mental health is as significant as physical health in this area.

I've looked at the FWR Alba thread again and I can see a fair bit of support for the slimy sex pest's new party, purely for his stance on trans issues. Shameful

the thing is, these are just message boards arent they. You get a lot of vocal opinionated people. I dont think there is a mumsnet consensus, but I definitely wouldnt go to the FWR board to discuss issues with my NB identifying kid, as there would only be a few on there that would understand my situaton, but I also wouldnt go to mermaids etc. Ive had to find my own way. I would definitely use the FWR for other things though as its really interesting to see so many articulate points of view on an important issue, but I take what rings true to me and ignore the rest. You can hardly blame the platform, just like it isnt british telecoms fault what people discuss on the phone.
I also wouldnt go to the relationships board here for relationship advice btw. Not because its bad, but if you have a problem, then sometimes asking any old stranger who has no skin in the game to pile in with advice is going to be overwhelming, unhelpful and shit. Same as any board really.

biological facts as the issues are more around feeling

Great so women and girls are losing out in sport, politics, scholarships and their boundaries are erased all because a males feeling matter above all else.

You would avoid talking to a bunch of women who are , in the definition of stonewall , none binary often agender , about how to live as a none binary person? Many of whom had gender dysmorphia during their teenage years ?

Ok most of them Feel uncomfortable with the definitions , for reasons like " it's harmful to assign a gender to anyone which is implicit when one takes none binary as your gender " or " isn't everyone none binary?"

But to avoid talking to women who have lived it seems like classic ageist misogyny to me

I dont think any child should be put onto a pathway of unliscenced drugs which stunt their bone growth and brain development, and almost always result in cross sex hormones which can lead to permanent sexual dysfunction, a myriad of general developmental problems, infertility and cutting off healthy body parts. There is no robust data on any of this, and I absolutely think it should be illegal to give children puberty blockers, as they are essentially experimental.

I am absolutely horrified at the latest series of I Am Jazz, where Jazz is on their 4th surgery, is still in pain, doesn't have proper sexual sensation, and where Jazz's mum is complaining that Jazz isn't using their dialator consistently and she wakes Jazz up in the night with the dialator in hand and says if Jazz doesn't do it she will do it herself, and that if Jazz goes to college and doesn't use it properly and 'that thing seals up' she will 'wring her neck'. And after all of it, Jazz is still unhappy and experiencing mental health issues, including binge eating disorder.

I can hold those positions whilst also having sympathy with the parents of transgender children who are finding it difficult to figure out the best course of action for their child.

@HeadNorth

I think that facts are used aggressively - parents are told repeatedly people can't change sex. Well, duh, most parents aren't stupid and aren't slaves to stereotypes. But they are dealing with real and complex people and a range of emotions and the anti-trans mantras are not helpful or often relevant. Trans people exist and you can't shout them out of existence by using biological facts as the issues are more around feelings. Mental health is as significant as physical health in this area.

I've looked at the FWR Alba thread again and I can see a fair bit of support for the slimy sex pest's new party, purely for his stance on trans issues. Shameful

Facts are used aggressively?

It is true though that people cant change sex, and thats really important to remember, that no matter what the child does, that changing actual sex isnt going to happen.

I think if you want a more sensitive type of support on gender issues then it is unfortunate that there arent many places you can get it.
i tried to talk about my dc on a different board and was told that I clearly didnt love my child, because I mentioned that I actually found the pronoun change hard work and annoying. I was insulted a fair bit. Is that any better?

Wheres the nuance? Any board thats GC gets infiltrated by TRAs. People have to PM each other in private for advice about things to do with the issue. Its actually hard work.
I dont expect everyone on mumsnet to have an understanding of navigating the internet world for parents of teenagers, cos half of those replying, have two year olds or no kids and suggest stuff like banning the internet. The other lot on the internet think its all happy pride and glitter families, and then youve got the misogynist pricks and the hun mums.

You find the best place to get the advice you want, not shut down places because they dont give you appropriate advice for your needs.

Trans people exist and you can't shout them out of existence by using biological facts as the issues are more around feelings.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

How can a person be shouted out of existence? Surely someone’s feelings, and the biological facts around them, are two separate things? Or are you saying people must deny biology exists in order not to hurt the feelings of trans people? Isn’t that rather insulting to trans people?

Ah ha

Hyperbole

No one is shouting people out of existence, just pointing out some basic truths and showing care for children to ensure that none confirming children don't get steered into paths have long term physical implications that include possible sterilisation when history suggests these are not necessary

Trans people have always existed

And teenage girls rejecting thier sex , thief body and thier gender role have always existed , and those children grow up into ... well often very gender critical feminists

Those are the voices that are being silenced however ( well people try anyway )