horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

Indeed @ThatsShitTryHarder facts can be dispensed with it seems.

We know trans people exist - where does this idea come from that people want trans people to not exist somehow? We can all be nice and pretend but is that the answer?

As a parent I don't want my kid's wellbeing to depend upon other people denying reality and telling them what they want to hear. How am I doing my job if instead of preparing my kid for the world I try to pressure everyone into going along with a lie? Is that right?

I do think this topic should be a space for parents with trans kids to talk without being taken over with "what bathroom does your kid use" and "make sure they stick to their own teams in sports"

I've seen it so much with parents questioning what to do about a certain problem with their kid and get shouted down on here.

It would be very helpful if we could have just one section where we could discuss the problems we face without the usual people showing up and taking over with their views.

I sometimes think its no wonder that people go to Mermaids for advice when this place can be so hostile to us parents of trans kids discussing OUR problems and solutions.

I don't think one section on here is too much to ask.

Agree @DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I do think this topic should be a space for parents with trans kids to talk without being taken over with "what bathroom does your kid use" and "make sure they stick to their own teams in sports"

I've seen it so much with parents questioning what to do about a certain problem with their kid and get shouted down on here.

It would be very helpful if we could have just one section where we could discuss the problems we face without the usual people showing up and taking over with their views.

I sometimes think its no wonder that people go to Mermaids for advice when this place can be so hostile to us parents of trans kids discussing OUR problems and solutions.

I don't think one section on here is too much to ask.

There are two issues here - first, I think it’s unreasonable to expect a forum where anyone can post what they like within talk guidelines to be the one safe place parents of gender questioning children can go to talk with no other opinions allowed. Mumsnet just isn’t that place, not for any minority group. There must be another forum, somewhere, that parents can go to if they only want to hear opinions that agree with their? Isn’t there a sub-Reddit that would suit?

Second, this thread was started by someone who wanted to criticise people on Mumsnet for their views about children with gender dysphoria. You can’t expect people to just ignore that criticism. Everyone has a right to reply to the accusations the OP is making.

@TroublesomeTownHouse

Indeed *@ThatsShitTryHarder* facts can be dispensed with it seems.

We know trans people exist - where does this idea come from that people want trans people to not exist somehow? We can all be nice and pretend but is that the answer?

As a parent I don't want my kid's wellbeing to depend upon other people denying reality and telling them what they want to hear. How am I doing my job if instead of preparing my kid for the world I try to pressure everyone into going along with a lie? Is that right?

It’s interesting to think that if Mumsnet allocated a board only for parents of children with gender dysphoria, with no dissenting voices allowed, your views would probably be considered unwelcome, @TroublesomeTownHouse

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

The OP started this thread targeting GC posters so while I do agree with you in a sense GC posters cannot be blamed for taking over this space/thread given the fact that the OP basically invited us to comment.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult we can't have it both ways. I relish uncensored debate because in so many other places (twitter for one) women are banned frequently for speaking the truth.

If you ask for opinions you will get opinions.

The whole "safe space" concept is part of why we are in this mess.

Uncensored debate is absolutely fine.

A struggling parent having a specific and sensitive problem and being jumped on by loads of posters because they allow their child to use a different toilet isn't fine at all.

If people want a debate then they have dozens of boards to go on. If they want advice they should be able to have a topic where their problem isn't turned into a debate about trans issues.

Does anyone think its actually helpful when they do that on a thread on this board?

So if the advice is " but don't let the child use the other sex facilities" that's not offering advice and how to tread the line but being nasty and unsupportive
?
If you come looking for advice , sometimes it isn't what you expected ?

I agree with you there @DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult. Unsolicited advice or judgement is rarely helpful.

I've looked at the FWR Alba thread again and I can see a fair bit of support for the slimy sex pest's new party, purely for his stance on trans issues. Shameful

There are now 48 posts on the thread, of which the OP plus five others are supportive of Alba, and one of them isn't in Scotland so can't vote for them anyway. The vast majority of posts on the thread are extremely dubious about Salmond leading a party which claims any support for women's rights.

But you didn't initially complain that there was "a fair bit of support."

You said

On the back of this thread I popped back into FWR and lo and behold they are supportng sex pest Alex Salmond's new party. That is not feminism as I understand it.

Your suggestion was that the women of FWR "are supporting" it - that the sentiment on FWR was broadly in favour of Salmond's party - and that isn't true, is it.

A discussion is being held, and the six voices in favour of the party are being opposed eightfold by those against.

Ironically, this is very much what the OP complains of, that voices in one direction can outnumber voices in another.

Innate identity voices being opposed eightfold (or more) by GC voices - "a hostile environment"

Pro-Alba voices being opposed eightfold - "they are supporting...."

Autocorrect- sorry! Hopefully you can read past the typos.

Apologies for posting on this board as GC parent (not a parent of LGBT children that I am currently aware of). It came up on active posts and from the original post it seemed to inviting discussion. I didn’t see which board it was posted on. If @outedbyfaircop just needed a vent in a safe place I genuinely am sorry.

I won’t continue posting.

I hope I don't share any of the views you talk about in your OP but I was a confused autistic bisexual and so I do worry about children like I was. It is a demographic that exists.

“I've looked at the FWR Alba thread again and I can see a fair bit of support for the slimy sex pest's new party, purely for his stance on trans issues. Shameful”

Once again, an acknowledgement that women exist as a sex and are entitled to single sex spaces is framed as a ‘trans issue’.

Hi all. We'd like to take the opportunity to drop in here with a couple of points on the OP's topic of 'parents of trans kids on MN'.

On the whole, we make a distinction between parents seeking support and the general sex and gender discussions that are ongoing in other areas of the site.

Mumsnet is geared towards offering peer-to-peer support for parents, especially those who are struggling, and we take a dim view of any 'derailing as political activism' in threads intended to solicit help and advice. If you see this happening, then please do let us know. As always, if you have any concerns about a post or poster then please report - we're always fine to take a look.

See this is what i mean. I posted this thread, got no replies for ages, so i logged off for the weekend absolutely knackered and feeling wrung out with it all, and now there’s people accusing me of bad faith, trolling etc

Got people going ‘I won’t use pronouns because of paedos in prison’ - that’s deciding to treat all trans individuals as being the same as bad faith sexual predators - wow. Imagine treating any other minority group with the courtesy you’d afford to the absolute worst example of a person belonging to that group that you can think of. “I haven’t got a problem with institutionalised misogyny because rose west exists’ - listen to yourselves.

And all the how very dare you think badly of gc posters - i see and report transphobia all the time. Why shouldn’t i think the worst of all of you? You have no problem lumping me in with ‘a cult’, and as for that disgusting story about jazz jennings’ genitals - what is WRONG with you? Since when is it ok to use worst case scenario horror stories to talk to parents of struggling kids? Do you go on VBAC threads posting examples of children left with severe life limiting disabilities due to birth injuries from vaginal deliveries? If not why not? Why is it different?

If you search my posts under this name you will see a real world example of real harm and distress caused in real life to me and my kid - not by unreconstructed neanderthal transphobes but by well meaning “gender critical” (actually i might just use “transphobic” in future as i find gender critical to be compelled speech that denies reality) “feminists”.

And as for the usual ‘why can’t you tell your child to just be a tomboy/be happy in their body’ - gee i wish i’d thought of that!!! What would i do without such amazing advice? Quick, there’s some people on the mental health board who probably haven’t considered just cheering up and thinking positively. Maybe go give them the benefit of this type of wisdom.

People just don’t get it and there’s a culture of being almost proud to not get it - i’m pleased that people haven’t been through this but there’s such arrogance here. When i see people saying ‘well I don’t have a gender identity i’m just me’ i think oh good for you, but i read it as being the same as when white people talk about ‘I don’t see skin colour’. Just because it’s not an issue for you personally, is it that hard to believe that other people’s experiences aren’t the same as yours?

I’m - not glad, i dunno, that seems stupid - relieved? that i’m not the only person to feel like this. It’s so hard supporting a distressed child through this. I see bow that logging off mn and seeking support irl was absolutely the right thing to do last Friday. I just feel for parents in my position who don’t have that as an option.

You have no problem lumping me in with ‘a cult’, and as for that disgusting story about jazz jennings’ genitals - what is WRONG with you? Since when is it ok to use worst case scenario horror stories to talk to parents of struggling kids? Do you go on VBAC threads posting examples of children left with severe life limiting disabilities due to birth injuries from vaginal deliveries? If not why not? Why is it different?

Jazz Jennings is a poster child (well they are an adult now) for trans kids. Jazz's story is absolutely not supposed to be framed a cautionary tale of 'a worst case scenario horror story', Jazz's story is what happens when you do not allow a child to go through puberty at all and then you put them onto cross sex hormones. Of course there are going to be problems, just because someone really, really wants it to all work absolutely fine, doesn't mean it will.

I know it's upsetting but Jazz is the reality. It has been documented for the whole world to see, it's right out there. And yet we are still supposed to think this is OK.

(actually i might just use “transphobic” in future as i find gender critical to be compelled speech that denies reality)

Oh the irony 🤣

It's interesting that you draw the comparison to race.

Should children be given support if they wanted surgery to make their skin colour match how they felt inside?

Hopefully the parent would question why their child had such strange ideas about race and was so focused on outward appearances?