horrible generalisations about parents of trans kids on mn

[outedbyfaircop]

my kid is trans. he is 14. I have been through the mill with him right enough, and would probably have described myself as "gender critical" a few years ago. however, I started to get uncomfortable with the level of outright hostility to trans people, people refusing to use pronouns etc - it's just not for me. I unpeaked. never discussed this with my kid or anything, and when he came out as trans, we did and are doing the whole "watchful waiting" thing while also being 100% affirming for now. I'd say more but I don't feel like this is the place.

I'm currently locked in a bit of a debate with mnhq about what is and isn't ok to say about parents of trans kids. it seems there's a lot of generalisations - we're homophobic, we subscribe to sexist rigid gender roles, we're lying to our kids, we have munchausens by proxy - and as long as it's generalised and not aimed at an individual, it's apparently allowed to stand? what other groups of people is it ok to do this to? women called Karen? parents of children with ADHD/ODD/foetal alcohol syndrome? is it ok for me to say "if you are gender critical you are raising your child to be a bigot who hates trans people"? if not why not? as long as I'm talking generally right?

I find it creates an incredibly hostile environment for parents like me. I've been around on this board under various names for a long time. I've had good advice on here, I've made RL friends. but the hostility to trans people and parents of trans kids is wearing me out. I'm not talking about being at cross purposes wrt political aims - if you think puberty blockers/hormones should be banned for under 18s, or everyone should only ever use the toilets of their sex at birth, you do you, be upfront and say that, that's fine. but people don't say that, presumably they don't dare to, so they hint and suggest and present a narrative that suggests this is what needs to happen by talking about brainwashing, or by painting trans people as either sexual predators or confused autistic lesbians. it reminds me of people who talk about 'muslim grooming gangs' when they mean 'brown people are awful' then turn round and go 'but how is that racist, islam isn't a race'. I don't want to censor anyone honestly stating their genuinely held opinions, but the constant 'eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative goes beyond that, and isn't conducive to honest good faith debate imo.

it's exhausting to read. I'm sure I'll get jumped on and called all the bastards of the day, or talked about on the "secret" thread for slagging trans inclusive posters off on, or accused of mining for screenshots. I don't care, I wanted to get this off my chest.

I feel for you OP, I’m fairly new to mumsnet and was surprised at all the anti-trans threads on here as it’s a lot different to how it’s seen amongst my circle of friends

OP, I will address your comments about attitudes to the parents of trans kids.

I totally agree with you. Without even reading the rest of this thread, because just a glimpse was upsetting, I too am tired of the bigotted view on here that all parents of trans kids brought them up in some kind of nineteen fifties throwback straitjacketed family surroundings.

I'm sending you support, but I'm not reading this thread.

[quote HeadNorth]@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult I haven't walked your road but my lovely family member has - and I can assure you she has always, from the day they were born, offered unquestioning support of her child as "perfect as they are". As it turns out, part of what they are is trans. Which is hard, but if you love your children, love your family, then you have to find your road to acceptance and understanding. It is so much more complex and nuanced than anyone who has never experienced it can realise.[/quote]
thank god for you, and @DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult, and the other posters who get where I'm coming from. of course posters who are not trans and who do not have trans children are experts on parenting trans kids - just like everyone's a perfect parent before they have kids. Like DPLD, I also report a lot of transphobic threads and posts and they are usually taken down - very strange that, given 'there's no transphobia on mumsnet'.

@ThatsShitTryHarder do you realise that this thread is in the LGBT children topic? not FWR? what board would you suggest parents like DPLD and I post on for support? or do you mean 'away from mumsnet'? Because you're taking it on yourself to say that trans people and those that love them aren't welcome on mn - that's very much not the official message from MNHQ, but hopefully they can see why they have the reputation they do, and why wanging on about 'robust debate' on twitter isn't cutting it when this is the reality of the board culture.

@LangClegsInSpace I can see very much you'd like me to shut up about what happened to me and my kid. This wouldn't be an issue at all were it not for over zealous transphobes trying to make political capital out of an awful thing that happened. I will not be quiet and go away so you don't have to confront the uncomfortable truth that these are real people you and your pals like shitting on. I do have other mn names. I've been here a very long time. Thanks for the internet safety tips though.

@Umbivalent

OP, I will address your comments about attitudes to the parents of trans kids.

I totally agree with you. Without even reading the rest of this thread, because just a glimpse was upsetting, I too am tired of the bigotted view on here that all parents of trans kids brought them up in some kind of nineteen fifties throwback straitjacketed family surroundings.

I'm sending you support, but I'm not reading this thread.

thank you Umbivalent

the thread isn't pleasant reading no, but you will see we're not alone. but it's quite exhausting. I think part of the rhetoric around trans child = bad parenting is the sort of magical thinking that informs the circulation of those 'pass this on to tell women to carry umbrellas/don't wear their hair in pony tails' victim blamey email chain things. if people can convince themselves that some terrible fate (my child is not a terrible fate btw, I'm talking from what I take to be the transphobes' perspective) is to some extent self inflicted, they can both convince themselves that they are safe from dealing with similar, and feel ok about looking down on those people it happens to.

I can only imagine how hard it is OP. Mumsnet is a revoltingly hostile place when it comes to trans rights - one of the worst on the internet. It must be so hard to come to a parenting site and find people so bigoted.

You have some allies here but we’re sadly few and far between

OP, @NameChangedForThis15 and others. I saw this in Active. I have no other reason to be here but I wanted to express my support as I too recognised the sorry state of the Feminist board a described in this thread. 💐

what you 'think' would have happened is neither here nor there. I have (very occasionally) posted about my child before under other names so I know what happens. I was on the thread that DifficultPifcult mentions upthread and I remember what happened there. I'm not alone in my opinions as this thread demonstrates. And this message was posted on the thread I mentioned by an MNHQer:

"Hi all - we've been getting reports about this thread so please do try to post within Talk guidelines. We're not keen to host threads about threads and much of this discussion seems to be about other deleted threads/comments. There also seems to be a lot of talk about other posters - which isn't really in the spirit of the site. We'll probably remove posts which continue in this manner.
In the meantime as always, please do report any post or poster that you're concerned about - we're always fine to take a look."

is that evidence ok for you?

Completely agree with you op! This place is vile for trans kids and their parents x

@outedbyfaircop

what you 'think' would have happened is neither here nor there. I have (very occasionally) posted about my child before under other names so I know what happens. I was on the thread that DifficultPifcult mentions upthread and I remember what happened there. I'm not alone in my opinions as this thread demonstrates. And this message was posted on the thread I mentioned by an MNHQer:

"Hi all - we've been getting reports about this thread so please do try to post within Talk guidelines. We're not keen to host threads about threads and much of this discussion seems to be about other deleted threads/comments. There also seems to be a lot of talk about other posters - which isn't really in the spirit of the site. We'll probably remove posts which continue in this manner.
In the meantime as always, please do report any post or poster that you're concerned about - we're always fine to take a look."

is that evidence ok for you?

Yes, that looks like evidence that MNHQ takes seriously any rule breaking.

But I was thinking more of evidence of secret thread where posters (not sure which ones) talk about trans people behind their backs, and also evidence of the “eww trans people and their allies amirite' narrative” you mentioned in your OP.

I won't link the thread. "secret" was deliberately in scare quotes so I am sure you will find it if you look hard enough. And there are many threads started on FWR that are just about mocking individual trans people for not doing very much. they get deleted as not in the spirit. There were several started about Elliott Page when he split from his wife. Obviously I can't show you a deleted thread. But you can see that I've backed up what I said so you can stop gaslighting me now.

Do you have an LGBT child?

Experiencing hostility from people doesn’t change scientific fact though

I genuinely feel for you and I think you sound like a strong, loving mother who is doing her very best to support her child under very difficult circumstances.

However, as feminists, we cannot just roll over at the assault on womanhood, safeguarding and rational thought that trans ideology presents. We have to have a place to talk about it, we have to be allowed to organise and counter it. It is too important a range of issues to adopt a #bekind attitude.

I truly am sorry if you feel attacked. I feel frightened and enraged and worried for my daughter when I consider the way trans ideology is threatening to erode the rights of women and girls. There is a tension between trans rights and women’s rights, and this is what the vast majority of posters on MN want to highlight and discuss. Most people aren’t interested in attacking individuals, but we will call out the injustice we see and it is vital we are able to continue doing so.

[quote HeadNorth]@midgedude with respect, based on your previous posts, I don't think you are in any position to offer 'advice' to anyone dealing directly with a trans family member. Maybe it would be better for you to listen and learn?[/quote]
I think midge is excellently placed to offer advice.

You know that recent, sudden ~5000% (not a typo) increase in the number of female children referred to GIDS? Where were they before ~2013?

We are told that trans children have always existed and the reason for this increase is that there is now less stigma and more support so they feel more comfortable coming out.

So there must be a LOT of women like midge who were born too early to catch this wave of support and acceptance but who nevertheless were persistent, insistent and consistent in their belief that they were the opposite sex, over several years during childhood and/or adolescence.

We should be listening to and learning from women like midge because she has navigated a severely gender dysphoric chidhood and adolescence without affirmation, puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones or surgery.

And there isn't a huge trend of older women transitioning as there is with older men (which is odd when you think about it because the menopause would be a very handy hormonal blank-slate point at which to start taking cross-sex hormones). So it would seem that the vast majority of girls with gender dysphoria, prior to the last 15-20 years, found alternative ways of finding peace with their female bodies. I'm sure that for many that has not been easy and for some it's an ongoing struggle, especially as gender as a thing in society is ramped up and up and up.

But the only other option offered is experimental puberty blockers, permanent physical changes from cross-sex hormones and the removal of healthy organs. No decent parent would want that for their child if there was a less harmful alternative.

That's why we should listen to women like midge and learn from them.

See also Stella O'Malley who has produced a very thoughtful podcast series with Sasha Ayad here:

www.youtube.com/channel/UCP62aWWtlZV1oVnbMhTRBcg/videos

@LangClegsInSpace I can see very much you'd like me to shut up about what happened to me and my kid. This wouldn't be an issue at all were it not for over zealous transphobes trying to make political capital out of an awful thing that happened. I will not be quiet and go away so you don't have to confront the uncomfortable truth that these are real people you and your pals like shitting on. I do have other mn names. I've been here a very long time. Thanks for the internet safety tips though.

I suggested a name change to protect your own privacy and your child's privacy, that's all. I would suggest the same to anybody who was at risk of giving out personal details, no matter whether I agreed with their views or not.

You're on MN and we all care about children here, even if we disagree on everything else. I hope that's an accepted bottom line. I think it would be best for your child if you made it your top priority in this situation to protect their privacy.

I'm not telling you to shut up, be quiet or go away. If you think you have a legitimate complaint against fc then you should pursue it, but there are much better ways of doing that than having it out across social media, which will inevitably lead to more people knowing things about you and your family than they otherwise would.

Really, there is no way to openly pursue a complaint about 'outing' on social media without outing yourself further. Ask those feminists who you hate. They've had lots of practice.

From what I can make out, this thread is complaining about posters making political points on support threads. I agree that's shitty, but this isn't a support thread is it? The response I have quoted above is very political, really quite nasty and nothing to do with your child or their wellbeing.

You say you have other mn names but you have chosen to use this one on this thread on this board. Why have you done that? What does this thread have to do with FC?

Surely if you are posting on LGBT children then your focus should be on your child.

I think part of the rhetoric around trans child = bad parenting is the sort of magical thinking that informs the circulation of those 'pass this on to tell women to carry umbrellas/don't wear their hair in pony tails' victim blamey email chain things.

WTF? {confused]

even

You, or she, can't gaslight the world into changing reality. I'm a 41 year old lesbian and I can tell you from knowing many that being a transman is not an easy life.

We are told that trans children have always existed and the reason for this increase is that there is now less stigma and more support so they feel more comfortable coming out

The alternative narrative is ROGD - i.e. there were not this huge number of 'trans kids' (overwhelmingly female) in previous decades and what is happening with adolescent girls now, has no precedent. We should be looking at this as a whole new phenomenon which has nothing to do with the middle age male transitioners who are setting the agenda.

I don't understand how people can dismiss ROGD and also dismiss posters like midge.

I don't understand what coherent explanation they have left.

My daughter was desperate to be a boy when she was little. She was 'not like the other girls' and didn't fit in at all. She refused stereotypical 'girl's' clothes, hobbies, toys and kept her hair short.
Any time she was made to wear girly things always ended up with a massive scene, a very unhappy child and a very disrupted family.
I'd do anything for my children and I very soon gave up on trying to make her fit any box.
She's now in high school, grown her hair long, likes to experiment with makeup and still mainly has boys as friends and all her hobbies are traditionally 'male' - centric although at high school she has found more girls who like the same things she does.
Had she said she wanted to become a trans boy / non binary, I'd have supported her in terms of identity, clothes etc but I would have definitely made sure that she knew that if she wanted to make a permanent change she would have to wait until she was 18. It's just too risky when a child is unsure of themselves or where they fit in, to make such a drastic change at a time in life where they are not fully armed with self awareness and the nuances of gender and sexuality spectra.
It's no coincidence that without exception, every child / teen I know who is now identifying as trans or non binary, is a child with asd or a mental health vulnerability.
It's almost textbook seeing which of my friends' children will come out as trans. It's kids who are marginalised, feel different, don't fit in. Kids who self harm.
They don't feel they have a place in the world and they find a place on the Internet and start looking for reasons why they might be so different or awkward and the answer is often because they are trans or non binary.
I have concerns about how this information is given to kids.
I have massive concerns about the anger, venom and hysteria against anybody who voices concerns about this.
I think children are vulnerable and highly suggestible.
I think tras have allowed predatory types to trample over the rights of women and children and I believe that a lot of this hysteria is a smokescreen for people who don't respect women and people who for some reason feel they need to infiltrate spaces where women and children are vulnerable.
I think we need to keep speaking up as concerned parents, women, citizens before we completely undo the work that suffragettes and gay rights activists died for.
I have recently seen women and girls referred to as 'people who are born with female reproductive organs', 'people who bleed' 'menstruators' 'menstruating people' 'bigots' 'fascists' 'people with uteruses'.
All such depersonalising language.
I have never in my life been homophobic or transphobic. I have no problem with people identifying however they want but when people tell me that I can't identify as a woman without putting a fucking x in the word to completely remove it of any rational meaning then I start to feel attacked.
We have fought for generations for women's rights, and equality across the board.
This latest wave or trans activism and trans allies is something else altogether. Elements of it are very sinister and very frightening, especially with regards to the criminal justice system and where vulnerable children are concerned.

From what I can make out, this thread is complaining about posters making political points on support threads. I agree that's shitty, but this isn't a support thread is it? The response I have quoted above is very political, really quite nasty and nothing to do with your child or their wellbeing.

It’s a thread explaining why i feel unable to ask for support, so it is to do with support. I am sorry you find me “nasty” but my anger is legitimate. Would you like me to “be kind” instead?

Famous, your entire post is just a rehash of points that are made on FWR (and chat, and aibu, and here in lgbt children) several times a day. Who is telling you that you ‘can’t identify as a woman without putting an x in the word’? Literally no one is telling you this, and if you think that they are i can only recommend you spend less time online. Pulling things like this out of your arse while accusing other people of “hysteria” seems like quite the projection.