What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Shaun King posted some interesting posts these past few days following his request for numbers of babies and names of the babies killed by Hamas on October 7th. The total was one, and it was not beheaded. A second baby who died was to a woman during childbirth. Absolutely not condonable, but it's been proven that Isreal lied about babies being beheaded. POTUS also had to retract his statement that he'd seen video evidence of this, because it was incorrect.

If you really understand what happened on 7 October, then calling me a "war crime apologist" is a bit rich coming from you.

Ah well that's fine then! Honestly, it was just a nice day out. Everyone had a lovely time. Some Jews didn't, but that's OK.

Do you mean the one which was put alive into the oven? That's far worse than beheading...

I can't work out how to edit my last post. I mentioned October 7th specifically, but his data request was into total number of babies killed by Hamas, which if I recall correctly, wasn't limited to October 7th.

You really think I'm so ignorant as to think it's all fun and games?!

War is always vile. Yet sometimes humanity is worth defending.

Where did I say it was fine? What Hamas have done is disgusting and I hope each and every one of them face the same hand they have dealt their victims, but I just cannot understand how the answer is killing another almost 9,000 babies and children.

I can be both pro-Zionism, and condemn the killing of literally thousands of people. I just don't believe mass murder of innocents is the answer.

I don't know what the answer is. But this doesn't feel like it is the answer.

Yes, a bit like Oct 08, 09, 10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23………and on and on, until Gaza has been flattened and everyone is dead.

You talk of cruelty ?? Ffs ! The IDF have no bounds when it comes to cruelty. Evil state sponsored cruelty, committing war crime after war crime. That’s your wonderful Israel.

Yes, the report of the oven killing turned my stomach and is far worse than a beheading. As is thousands of babies being blown up.

The only deaths that won't turn my stomach is the deaths of Hamas and those in power in Israel who are leading this massacre.

In case you’re not still aware this didn’t happen. It was posted last week by an Israel newspaper that this never happened

What kind of stuff are you talking about?

Loads of my friends are posting stuff saying ceasefire now! Children are dying, I stand with Palestine. I don’t see any support for Hamas or any terror activity. If I did I’d be shocked as they would be anti war and anti violence. They are very much “peace, justice and equality for all” kind of people.

@EasterIssland I missed that report. The lies that have been used as justification for this massacre are building every day 😞

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000

youve to be registered to read it

That was debunked, it never happened.
One baby sadly died, which of course is shocking but the IDF killed a huge amount of the civilians that day, that has been admitted by the Israeli state.
The baby in the oven story was sadly rumoured to have been done many years ago by the IDF. The hideous story of the 40 beheaded babies also was another Israeli lie propaganda. This is I the public domain, I surprised anyone is so stupid to still believe this.
How many thousands of defenceless Palestinian babies has Israel killed in revenge for that one poor baby ? How many dead babies is enough ?

Again……it’s not a war, it’s an invasion !

Can you give some examples of the antisemitic posts your friends are sharing on Facebook OP?

Errrrrrmmmmmm.............................................................

Not even that!

It is a probably (according to experts, not me) wholesale genocidal onslaught of an occupying power - wielding one of the most powerful armies in the world, and enjoying the support of US global hegemonic aspirations - against an occupied population.

No "but, but, but, ... Israel withdrew" - Israel is STILL the occupying power (as confirmed by various international bodies), and as such is responsible for ensuring the safety and well-being of the people it occupies.

Instead of doing so, it wages an extermination war against them!

You know, it is not even the carpet bombing that gets to me the very most. It is the medieval style siege! To hunger and thirst out 2.3 million people, half of whom are children ... and then to go ahead and demand "but, but, but, ... but we are the victim!"

I do not condone attacks on civilians on 7/10 - soldiers and military targets are fair game (not my opinion, international law says so). But one atrocity does not justify another (also, see above, not my opinion but international law) - and the Israeli "response" has, at this point, gone far beyond anything that could be even remotely justifiable in terms of "proportionality" and does not even pay lip service to "distinction".

What was your aim in starting this thread op?
I'd suggest you can't use your friends Facebook feeds as indicative of "the left wing". Maybe you should ask them why they are posting pro-Hamas material? It could be they don't know where the memes are from (like all that Britain First idiocy with the dogs a few years ago). It could be they think their posts are supporting Palestinian civilians, not Hamas. Or it could be they are antisemitic. We can't judge that.

You put it so much better than me 👏

I’m a leftie, not Jewish.

The anti-semitism and weird, blind support of Hamas on the Left is a disgrace.

From where I'm standing, there's a "medieval style siege" and there is a war.

This pretty much sums up the long history of antisemitism from some on the left and how they morally validate it to themselves

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/shame-of-anitsemitism-on-left-has-long-malign-history

I could add more and tweak this article a bit but the bones of the situation with the very left are all in it, so no point really

@sunshinesupermum this did not begin on October 7th. It began 75 years ago and terror against Palestinians has continued

Did you know when Palestinian children were pulled from beds in middle of nigtt and imprisoned?
Did you condemn when journalists such as Shireen Abu Akleh was shot in daylight while wearing her press vest, and her funeral attacked?
Did you speak up when worshippers in Al Aqsa were tear gassed and beaten every Ramadan?
Did you condemn when Palestinians are shot and killed at random in the West bank

This did not begin October 7th and it is not naivete, but a refusal to see beyond your own narrative to keep to that story.

If you truly want to understand what's happening, read, watch, listen wider.

100%

This is not about Hamas but more about pushing Palestinians off more off their land and establishing a bigger state.

Israeli politicians and leaders have said this, again and again.

Maybe we should cry anti Palestinianianism or Settler colonialism as well as anti semitism. They are not mutually exclusive.