What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Are you denying that Gaza is under siege or claiming it's an acceptable part of war?

Denying civilians food and water and attacking them if they try to escape harm is a war crime. Locking them into an area where there is no escape from bombardment is intentional slaughter.

I've just never known a war where one side is held responsible for the daily welfare of the other side, simply because the other side's government have been utter shitheads. Or, let's face it, where a country has deliberately used its citizens as human shields and everyone has blamed the attacker for the inevitable results.

To have a discussion about why the left has a problem, rather large scale problem with anti-semitism. Which is what I said in my OP.

Entirely hijacked now by people queuing up to explain why Israel is wrong, and flinging the usual genocide/war crime/occupation about. If I guessed, I’d say most would say they’re left wing anti-racists, and that most would not be able to name another conflict going on in the world which is claiming civilian lives every day (excepting Russia and Ukraine).

Indeed.

Thank you, I’ll read that. This is what I’d hoped to be able to discuss.

Congo
myanmar
mali

yes there are a few around. In none of them the death numbers per civilians are as high as those in Gaza or

and no we are not trying to hijack your thread. We are trying to explain to you that where you see a problem in the left we see a problem in Hamas and the actions taken by Israel government / IDF and because of that we critisize both. More Israel now as they’re the ones killing the preople. This is not anti semitism. If my country (I’m not British) was behaving the same way Israel far right government is behaving I’d be criticising it

@HeidiInTheBigCity 👏👏👏

Can I just say it's really heartening to see all the posters on here who see through Israel's propaganda. I feel the tide has really turned in the last month or so. I'm glad to see so many people standing up for what's right in the face of bad faith actors. The false accusations of antisemitism are no longer having the desired effect.

No problem. The title will bring some people to the thread like flies.

Give it a few pages and you can probably start having the conversation you expected to have. Still will be a lot of debate but hopefully about the politics and whether antisemitism plays a part in the very lefts stants on things, rather than just talking about the conflict itself. Plenty of threads where that conversation and debate is happening, however that doesn't seem to matter.

That would be because ... again: it is a simple matter of "international law":

Israel is an occupying power opposite the people of Gaza. As an occupying power, Israel is obliged to ensure the well-being of the people it occupies. Israel is responsible for the well-being of Gazans because Israel is the occupying power.

As for Hamas (or any other Palestinian faction): they do have a right to resist - including via the means of armed resistance - their occupation. In doing so, they are bound by the same rules that apply to other conflicts: they have got to be proportional and have got to meaningfully discriminate between civilian and military targets. They arguably failed to comply with the latter principle on 7/10.

Also, again: one atrocity does not justify another. Therefore "but ... Hamas!" does not get Israel out of its responsibilities.

It is really not that hard!

Calling for stopping war/assault, criticising a government because of their actions, not because of their religion, is not anti semitic.

I think Israel is a barbaric, genocidal colonial state that lies, kills, imprisons, attacks at will and without impunity. I don't care if it's Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jain, Jewish. I am equally appalled at Saudis invasion of Yemen, Americans onslaught of terror against Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere else it has attacked, Britain's role in genocides, the war in Bosnia, Ukraine, whoever the perpetrators are, regardless of religion.

People can be pro Palestinian, hate Israels actions, without being pro Hamas or anti semitic. This is basic, has been argued on here for weeks, and is frankly just a distraction to avoid people seeing or calling out what is really happening - a real, live genocide. It's just throwing smoke to distract from the real fire, or whatever the term is.

We are trying to explain to you that where you see a problem in the left we see a problem in Hamas and the actions taken by Israel government / IDF and because of that we critisize both. More Israel now as they’re the ones killing the preople.

Yes, but there is a fundamental difference between war and terrorism. Of course nothing arises in a vacuum, but 7 Oct was something else entirely, do you not accept that? If not, please point to the precise actions of IDF that have mirrored the monstrous inhumanity of those attacks (besides war, which is always hideous)? Deliberate sadistic cruelty and savagery, which is promised to be repeated? celebrated openly in the streets? I mean just for example (but poor love, she's like a drop in the ocean of sadomisogyny) the spitting on Shani Louk's broken body? The sordid butchering and deliberate humilitaiton and terrorising of others - children, women, families, babies?

"they're the ones killing the people"
that's just so naive and grim, I mean, the reason 7 Oct was so horrific is that Hamas has been saving up for it for ages... the way you'd save your favourite fireworks for a big Bonfire Night. Fuck the fuckers, seriously, and here you are talking about it like it's OK.

It's odd that you care about it enough to start a thread but not enough to read any of the many articles explaining the difference between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism; and that you have somehow missed the many Jewish people (both living in Israel and around the world) who are vocally condemning Israel's current actions in Gaza. It makes your thread seem insincere.
Fwiw the ICC, Amnesty, Medicins San Frontier, UN agencies, NATO, are only some of the organisations calling for a ceasefire. Jewish New Yorkers held a rally on Thursday to call for a ceasefire. As have mothers from Israel and Palestine. Calling for a ceasefire is what people on the left are doing. It's not surprising. The left has always called for ceasefires in conflicts. It's always adopted positions of solidarity with civilians rather than leaders. It's always been against the military industrial complex.

@Pizdietz
You know, this happens all the time in West Bank right, by IDF to Palestinians? You know rape and sexual assault of Palestinian men and women is common? As is murder and "imprisonment" aka hostage taking, for life, for no reason? Wake up and smell the blood.

Fuck the fuckers in IDF ffs

Getting back to the actual point of the @Notsuretoputit OP, here's an article by a Jewish woman who went on quite a journey with the far left - first in the US and then UK. It's a couple of years old but is illustrative of how Jews, historically left wing, have also struggled to negotiate a space on the left.

Antisemitism and the Left: A Memoir

https://fathomjournal.org/antisemitism-and-the-left-a-memoir/

1. I’ve not said 7-10 didn’t happen and do wish it had never happened
2. There have been Israel people celebrating in the streets what has happened in Gaza and shouting about Arabs must die
3. Many of idfs actions could be similar to Hamas. They’d tortured , raped , killed innocents before and after 7-10.

here you are talking about it like it's OK.

again. I don’t think 7-10 is ok. Also I don’t think many of idf / settlers / governments actions are ok. There are innocent people that have died in both sides and this is not ok. I don’t have to choose between bad and worse. Both sides (Hamas and Israel goverment and idf) could behave much much better. They’re as bad as each other.

In the case of detainees and prisoners, specifically, rape and sexual assault are not only "common" but also routinely used to blackmail the victims into becoming collaborators.

It is vile!

@Notsuretoputit So are you ok with what Lammy is saying or do you think it is based in anti Semitism? Labour will oppose expulsions of Palestinians and bar violent settlers from UK | David Lammy | The Guardian

Agree

1. There are celebrations in Israel, perverse callings for death of Arabs from schools children to politicians, Rabbis in Central Park in New York calling for a Gaza to be flattened, wedding songs dedicated to destruction and annihilation of Gaza, IDF soldiers gleefully destroying shops, bakeries and schools while mocking Palestinians, Israeli civilians happily choosing bombs to kill children in the name of their loves.

Genocide.

Didn't we just have the same post about feminist?

Arguably? Good God.

This is not to do with the conflict or Jewish etc. However is a good explanation of some behaviour seen in the very left these days and what it leads too with regard to freedom of opinion etc

You’re only calling for a unilateral ceasefire, though, aren’t you?

To try and answer your question OP I think it has a lot to do with a big part of left wing identity being about supporting ‘the underdog’. Which makes sense when you’re talking about redistribution of wealth, lessening poverty, or whatever.

But it is something that gets tricky when you’re talking about very complex geopolitics with a long history. And where, despite some people’s insistence otherwise, there is no clear underdog for the left to support.

As a left wing Jew I find it frustrating when some on the left try and see things as black and white, where Israel is the dominant force and Palestine the underdog.

I'm not sure who the 'you' is since my post listed numerous organisations calling for a ceasefire.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't taking a side. Both sides need to stop in a ceasefire. Pretending that isn't the case either means you're being deliberately disingenuous or you actually think only Israel is fighting. Which tbh seems like an odd position for a self-declared Zionist to take.
Calling for an end to war crimes is the most basic humanitarian position. And no amount of disinformation, misinformation or strawmen will change that. Undermining international law leaves us all more vulnerable globally. And ignoring the deaths of thousands, leaves us all more morally bereft.

Oh thank you. That sounds very interesting. Will give it a read.