Page 6 | What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

Notsuretoputit · 2023-12-10T18:34:12+00:00

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK. It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics. I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:27

TheLonelyStarbucksLovers · 10/12/2023 21:47

To try and answer your question OP I think it has a lot to do with a big part of left wing identity being about supporting ‘the underdog’. Which makes sense when you’re talking about redistribution of wealth, lessening poverty, or whatever.

But it is something that gets tricky when you’re talking about very complex geopolitics with a long history. And where, despite some people’s insistence otherwise, there is no clear underdog for the left to support.

As a left wing Jew I find it frustrating when some on the left try and see things as black and white, where Israel is the dominant force and Palestine the underdog.

I'm getting really sick of all the posters talking about "brown lives" mattering less. Do they actually realise Israel are also "brown" (for anyone stupid enough to care about skin colour)?! Do they really think US funding trumps Qatar funding, out of some kind of "oohhh those poor brown people" patronising shit thinking?!

BabaBarrio · 10/12/2023 22:28

@sunshinesupermum
Israel spends money on protecting its citizens with the Iron Dome
USA (Uncle Sam) developed that, paid for it and gave it to Israel.

Hamas spends its money on building tunnels..
Yes, because Israel has had a blockade on Gaza since 2005. In 2007, they made it permanent. The tunnels were originally created to smuggle in goods that Israel refused to allow into the strip. Goods that could not possibly be used as weapons like pasta and infant formula:

“Throughout the past 16 years, the Israeli authorities have decided arbitrarily to ban certain goods from entering the strip as yet another form of collective punishment of its population. For example, in 2009, they decided that no pasta could enter Gaza. Yes, pasta.”
“So, the Palestinians dug tunnels to try to smuggle in pasta and any other essential items that Israel would randomly ban.
Food, medicine and fuel started to trickle in from what came to be known as “the Metro” – which probably had more stops than Washington, DC’s metro system and, I dare say, was a little bit safer.
When my first daughter was born in 2011, I was in need of colic baby formula for her age 0-3 months, which was not available in local shops. I was relieved to be able to get hold of some boxes – courtesy of “the Metro”.
The tunnels became such a constant feature of our lives that we would sometimes joke about ordering Kentucky Fried Chicken through them, as this was seen as a “luxury” we didn’t have in Gaza.”
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/3/what-tunnels-and-hostages-mean-in-gaza

What ‘tunnels’ and ‘hostages’ mean in Gaza

I grew up in Gaza where tunnels provided essentials Israel banned and hostages were the Palestinians it imprisoned.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/3/what-tunnels-and-hostages-mean-in-gaza

bness · 10/12/2023 22:28

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:23

Of course it's cruel and savage. It's amost as cruel as 7 Oct, without the deliberate sadism. But why are you blaming Israel, and not Hamas? Why is no one admitting that Hamas is not just a few people in Gaza, but leaders who don't even live there, supported wildly by citizens who are so under the thumb that they can't see any other way?

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Hamas were elected in 2005/6, majority of Gazans are youth which means they didn't even elect Hamas. Also, Gaza is controlled by Israel - food, goods, even rainwater is controlled by Israel. Gazans are bystanders in a war between Israel and Hamas, two evil forces.

Toothyfruity · 10/12/2023 22:28

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:23

Of course it's cruel and savage. It's amost as cruel as 7 Oct, without the deliberate sadism. But why are you blaming Israel, and not Hamas? Why is no one admitting that Hamas is not just a few people in Gaza, but leaders who don't even live there, supported wildly by citizens who are so under the thumb that they can't see any other way?

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How is any of what I posted not deliberate sadism?

If you don't think that removing oxygen from babies' incubators and leaving them to slowly suffocate is sadism then I give up.

AdamRyan · 10/12/2023 22:29

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:27

I'm getting really sick of all the posters talking about "brown lives" mattering less. Do they actually realise Israel are also "brown" (for anyone stupid enough to care about skin colour)?! Do they really think US funding trumps Qatar funding, out of some kind of "oohhh those poor brown people" patronising shit thinking?!

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Noones mentioned race except you, not sure why you are replying to that poster

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 22:30

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 21:22

We are trying to explain to you that where you see a problem in the left we see a problem in Hamas and the actions taken by Israel government / IDF and because of that we critisize both. More Israel now as they’re the ones killing the preople.

Yes, but there is a fundamental difference between war and terrorism. Of course nothing arises in a vacuum, but 7 Oct was something else entirely, do you not accept that? If not, please point to the precise actions of IDF that have mirrored the monstrous inhumanity of those attacks (besides war, which is always hideous)? Deliberate sadistic cruelty and savagery, which is promised to be repeated? celebrated openly in the streets? I mean just for example (but poor love, she's like a drop in the ocean of sadomisogyny) the spitting on Shani Louk's broken body? The sordid butchering and deliberate humilitaiton and terrorising of others - children, women, families, babies?

"they're the ones killing the people"
that's just so naive and grim, I mean, the reason 7 Oct was so horrific is that Hamas has been saving up for it for ages... the way you'd save your favourite fireworks for a big Bonfire Night. Fuck the fuckers, seriously, and here you are talking about it like it's OK.

Edited

Yes Oct 07 was horrific, Hamas had indeed been planning it for over a year, the Israeli secret service and IDF were also warned about it a year ago, a further warning was given 3 months ago. The Israeli forces took between 6-10 hours to turn up….seriously ? The festival was also allegedly moved to the location nearer the border two days before. Hamas allegedly had no prior notice of the festival, they were planning attacks on bases and to take hostages for leverage. The festival was unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Israel is the most secure place on earth, with allegedly the most superior army and secret service intelligence agencies. I find it hard that they took so long to respond, then with such force then blasted their own people as well as the attackers. It could be said, this was the long awaited excuse they needed to flatten Gaza and land grab it, so they let it play out.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 22:32

Katy231 · 10/12/2023 21:51

How can you support a country that breaks international law. How can you support the only country in the world that legally imprisons children and abuses them?

OP, do you condemn this?

It is not legal to abuse imprisoned children in Israel.

The UK imprisons children, as do many other countries in the world.

OP posts:

Dinkydaisy1 · 10/12/2023 22:32

AdamRyan · 10/12/2023 22:27

We seem to have moved away from OPs original topic, which was whether her left leaning friends Facebook feeds indicate a bigger problem of antisemitism on "the left".

I think the problem is the conflation of criticising Israel and it's actions with anti semitism. Once you start tarnishing any criticism of Israel as being inherently anti semitic, the basis of your hypothesis is so inherently flawed that you lose any hope of having a rational argument. It also diminishes actual anti semitism and people's real and valid experiences of it, doing no one, not least your fellow Jewish people, a favour.

BabaBarrio · 10/12/2023 22:32

ticketstickets · 10/12/2023 19:56

Can you please describe to me the idyllic life Palestinians had before 1948?

I am so curious why the Palestinians had no issue being occupied by the British, before that the Ottomans, before that someone else....there has not been self rule in that part of the world since the Romans conquered Judea 2000 years ago. (and then it was a Jewish state).

Is it just the the Palestinian people only object to being ruled over by Jews but not by the British (Christians) or the Ottomans (muslim?)??

I would love a serious answer from someone on this.

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The locals there in each era had issues with all the imperialists that conquered and ruled them.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 22:33

HeidiInTheBigCity · 10/12/2023 21:51

Yes, "arguably" - defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as meaning "used when stating an opinion or belief that you think can be shown to be true".

I am not a judge at the Hague. Are you?

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That you only think that can be shown to be true is terrifying.

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Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:34

bness · 10/12/2023 21:56

I note that hardly, if any, of Israels supporters ever condemn any of Israels actions over the last decades. No condemnation of their rape, imprisonment, murder, assault, withholding food, gas, electricity, rainwater, apartheid system, destruction. Voices for condemnation are reserved for Palestine, Hamas and callers for ceasefire. @Notsuretoputit have you ever condemned any of Israels actions? Or are they all justified to you?

It's been a shit situation, on both sides, for decades. I just don't see Israel committing the same level of atrocities as 7 October. If I'm wrong, please point me in the direction of the relevant information.

I find it difficult talking on MN about "Palestinians" as though this is a homogeneous group. If other Palestinian countries had helped Gazans move out, this would be an entirely different story. Why is it Israel's fault that no one wanted them?

Katy231 · 10/12/2023 22:34

Toothyfruity · 10/12/2023 22:17

Is Israel killing thousands of civilians not horrific enough to move you? Children burned by white phosphorus, having amputations without anaesthetic, premature babies left without oxygen to die, some of them alone, children slowly dying under the rubble. Thousands and thousands of innocent precious children murdered.

You don't think this is horrific, it's just "war"?

As we speak hundreds of thousands of people are starving and have no water, shelter or healthcare.

Is this not cruel and savage?

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Exactly this! Israel has committed so many war crimes. Why do they think they are superior to all nations?

It's very scary indeed.
.

bness · 10/12/2023 22:36

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 22:30

Yes Oct 07 was horrific, Hamas had indeed been planning it for over a year, the Israeli secret service and IDF were also warned about it a year ago, a further warning was given 3 months ago. The Israeli forces took between 6-10 hours to turn up….seriously ? The festival was also allegedly moved to the location nearer the border two days before. Hamas allegedly had no prior notice of the festival, they were planning attacks on bases and to take hostages for leverage. The festival was unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Israel is the most secure place on earth, with allegedly the most superior army and secret service intelligence agencies. I find it hard that they took so long to respond, then with such force then blasted their own people as well as the attackers. It could be said, this was the long awaited excuse they needed to flatten Gaza and land grab it, so they let it play out.

Show quote history

Seriously bizarre. Gaza is one of the most surveilled places, the IDF have supreme intelligence (in terms of surveillance, not IQ or EQ) and they can intercept "hamas" calls within minutes after a blast. But they couldn't see a breakage and attack and took half a day to respond? OK....

Copernicus321 · 10/12/2023 22:37

The objectives of both the Zionist and Hamas extremists are mutually exclusive making a prolonged ceasefire or lasting peace impossible as both sides deny the right of the other to exist. For the Zionist extremists, Israel was given by God to the Jews. Hamas will not be content until they have established an Islamist state without infidels. The constant erosion of Palestinian Territories in the West Bank shows that Israel doesn't really believe in a 2-state solution. Although Hamas mentions a 2-state solution in their 2017 charter, it's only an interim step towards their goal as documented in the 1980 covenant. There has been so much bloodshed over the last 80 years, the support base for the extremists on both sides amongst the respective populations is much larger than you might imagine.

Katy231 · 10/12/2023 22:37

bness · 10/12/2023 22:36

Seriously bizarre. Gaza is one of the most surveilled places, the IDF have supreme intelligence (in terms of surveillance, not IQ or EQ) and they can intercept "hamas" calls within minutes after a blast. But they couldn't see a breakage and attack and took half a day to respond? OK....

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This is why Israelis are protesting. Because they know their government sacrificed the lives of fellow Israelis to excuse genocide.

bness · 10/12/2023 22:38

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:34

It's been a shit situation, on both sides, for decades. I just don't see Israel committing the same level of atrocities as 7 October. If I'm wrong, please point me in the direction of the relevant information.

I find it difficult talking on MN about "Palestinians" as though this is a homogeneous group. If other Palestinian countries had helped Gazans move out, this would be an entirely different story. Why is it Israel's fault that no one wanted them?

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If I'm wrong, please point me in the direction of the relevant information.

There is plenty, online, in interviews, in books, by Israeli authors, by Palestinians, by academics. There have been links and resources all over MN. Start with Ilan Pappe and Simha Flapan and Gabor Maté for a start.

Toothyfruity · 10/12/2023 22:40

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:34

It's been a shit situation, on both sides, for decades. I just don't see Israel committing the same level of atrocities as 7 October. If I'm wrong, please point me in the direction of the relevant information.

I find it difficult talking on MN about "Palestinians" as though this is a homogeneous group. If other Palestinian countries had helped Gazans move out, this would be an entirely different story. Why is it Israel's fault that no one wanted them?

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What other Palestinian countries? Palestine is their country.

Again, if you don't think what Israel is doing is as bad as what Hamas did on October 7 then you need to look at yourself. We can't keep explaining it to you.

Lesina · 10/12/2023 22:41

I am left wing. I am also able to know the difference between anti semintism and utter horror on the Armageddon Isreal is inflicting on the people of Gaza. All those poor defenceless children. Babies. I can not condone genocide as much as I believe in Israels right to exist.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 22:41

bness · 10/12/2023 21:56

I note that hardly, if any, of Israels supporters ever condemn any of Israels actions over the last decades. No condemnation of their rape, imprisonment, murder, assault, withholding food, gas, electricity, rainwater, apartheid system, destruction. Voices for condemnation are reserved for Palestine, Hamas and callers for ceasefire. @Notsuretoputit have you ever condemned any of Israels actions? Or are they all justified to you?

I find this attitude so bizarre. I don’t agree with many things Israel’s government has done, or indeed the UK government.

But I can’t imagine being in a position where a foreign government on a imagined island just off our shore had crossed the North Sea by night, raped and massacred 1200 civilians on the coasts, swore to return again and again until Britain was wiped off the map, and then see people on the internet asking if they condemned Britain for the Rwanda plan when the British government took steps, as it absolutely and unequivocally would, to remove those terrorists from repeating the attack.

Its absolutely batshit stuff.

OP posts:

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:41

bness · 10/12/2023 22:28

Hamas were elected in 2005/6, majority of Gazans are youth which means they didn't even elect Hamas. Also, Gaza is controlled by Israel - food, goods, even rainwater is controlled by Israel. Gazans are bystanders in a war between Israel and Hamas, two evil forces.

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I know what you're saying, but you could also argue that Israel are bystanders in a struggle between Gaza and Hamas, two closely intertwined forces.

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:42

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 22:41

I find this attitude so bizarre. I don’t agree with many things Israel’s government has done, or indeed the UK government.

But I can’t imagine being in a position where a foreign government on a imagined island just off our shore had crossed the North Sea by night, raped and massacred 1200 civilians on the coasts, swore to return again and again until Britain was wiped off the map, and then see people on the internet asking if they condemned Britain for the Rwanda plan when the British government took steps, as it absolutely and unequivocally would, to remove those terrorists from repeating the attack.

Its absolutely batshit stuff.

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It's gaslighting on a scale I never imagined possible.

Toothyfruity · 10/12/2023 22:42

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:41

I know what you're saying, but you could also argue that Israel are bystanders in a struggle between Gaza and Hamas, two closely intertwined forces.

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Bystanders? Israel is the occupying force.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 22:45

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

No, I don’t think criticism of Israel’s government is anti-Semitic. But it’s strange how the people who repeatedly say ‘I’m criticising the government, not Israel’ aren’t as endlessly fascinated by other foreign governments’ affairs.

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MrsHarrisAParis · 10/12/2023 22:45

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 22:19

So it is a bilateral ceasefire you (and your list of organisations) are calling for?

Great. Except Hamas has said they will repeat the attack we saw on 7/10 until Israel no longer exists. So what is Israel to do? Hamas won’t agree to a ceasefire. All of the organisations you listed know this. It is in effect calling for a unilateral ceasefire where Israel stops attempting to remove Hamas and Hamas regroups and is allowed to once again attack the civilians of Israel.

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'my' list of organisations?! No. It's a recognised global list.
You started this thread because you didn't understand why people on the left were calling for a ceasefire. It's fair to say that your knowledge of international relations and the likelihood of a ceasefire holding if Israel would commit to one does not supersede the views of WHO, the ICC or UN agencies.
Your knowledge of what is happening on the ground isn't as pertinent as that of the mothers in Palestine and Israel who have jointly been campaigning for a ceasefire since Oct and agencies like MSF who have been working in Israel and Gaza for decades.
You started this thread by broadcasting your lack of understanding. Perhaps you should then listen to those who do have experience in this area (both geographically and politically). The ICC, WHO, UN agencies, MSF have all issued clear statements concerning international law, the humanitarian position and what the next steps should be.
And fwiw, people on the right support a ceasefire too. Tens of thousands of people have marched in the UK. From all political persuasions and none. This isn't a partisan issue. It's a humanitarian one.

Katy231 · 10/12/2023 22:46

Hamas basically did to Israel what Israel has been doing to Palestinians ... And they experienced one day of the atrocity.

Imagine experiencing that level of atrocity for decades...

If Israel are reacting like this to one day of horror, then how should the people of Palestine react? The Palestinians who have been suffering like this for decades.

Stop dehumanising Palestinians and stop expecting them to act in a way that no other human could ever act. Israel is the best recruiter of Hamas and I am sure those children who have been burnt by white phosphorus are going to grow up hating Israel. Any of us would too.