What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

, just some local militia with hand made rockets.

That's hilarious..... and shows a new level of minimising.

@AdamRyan won't like you discussing the left wing @Notsuretoputit they get quite indignant. Especially on any thread that shows empathy to Israel.

@braticus the one who posted the women raped in Israel where only 'allegations' aka just like a terror apologist and rape apologist would. Actually ON a thread about women's suffering in Israel being minimised. Takes all sorts.

How can you support a country that breaks international law. How can you support the only country in the world that legally imprisons children and abuses them?

OP, do you condemn this?

Yes, "arguably" - defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as meaning "used when stating an opinion or belief that you think can be shown to be true".

I am not a judge at the Hague. Are you?

Nope, condemnation is only demanded from anyone who opposes Israel. Apart from Israel, everyone else is anti semitic, evil, deaf, blind, susceptible to confirmation bias, fuckers, etc etc.

I note that hardly, if any, of Israels supporters ever condemn any of Israels actions over the last decades. No condemnation of their rape, imprisonment, murder, assault, withholding food, gas, electricity, rainwater, apartheid system, destruction. Voices for condemnation are reserved for Palestine, Hamas and callers for ceasefire. @Notsuretoputit have you ever condemned any of Israels actions? Or are they all justified to you?

Exactly it is so disgusting. The most abusive country in the world. They have killed more children than any other country. So disturbing.

Israel have been burning poor children to the bone with white phosphorus. Disgusting.

For me, I am appalled it has taken so long.

I remember reading a really informative piece in a broadsheet (can't remember which one) at least 20 years ago about the theft of land in Gaza and the West Bank. The statistics were appalling and astounding even back then. I can't believe so many people have only informed themselves since 7/10 and see the violence as some sort of new thing. I'm disgusted by Keir Starmer's soft position.

Nice, thanks. Nothing like following posters around, twisting their words and picking a fight.

You're talking about Israel doing bad things, and you say Hamas "arguably" failed to comply with the usual rules on 7 October? Meh...

You're talking about Hamas as "Palestinian resistance"????????

Have I understood you correctly here??????????????????

Oh, and Israel, not Hamas, is responsible for the welfare of Gazan civilians?
the ones who swarmed over the border to rape, mutilate and murder Israelis?
the ones who celebrated openly in the streets?
the ones who spat on Shani Louk (as one example)?
etc?

Please explain if I have got the wrong end of the stick here.

I also don’t see people on the left supporting Hamas, but I do see a lot of people accused of being anti-semetic. It seems to have become a way to silence any criticism of the Israeli government. I feel sorry for any Jewish people who are really experiencing anti-semitism, that now won’t be taken as seriously because of this.

I’m not suggesting turning a blind eye at all. I meant perhaps take a break from the social media posts that are upsetting you so much. I believe there may be a minority of people with loud voices but I don’t know anyone who is antisemitic or believes that all the left is. The people who are threatening Jews in this country are far more likely to be on the right. We saw that with Braverman’s rhetoric stirring things up. People are calling for a ceasefire because thousands of civilians are dying. I’m not ignoring what happened on October 7th. It was horrific. People can condemn both actions. If I see antisemitism I call it out. That’s what we can all do.

It's not one or the other.

I’m not sure there are many different ways to understand it. It means supporting the existence of a Jewish state for Jewish people.

No. It means Israel being exclusively and entirely for the Jewish people. Of course Israel should be the homeland for the Jews. It should also be the homeland for the Palestinians who have lived there for decades. There is room for a Palestinian state and for an Israeli state.

Also, Zionism stems from the belief that God gave the land to the Jews. That misses out the whole chunk of the Old Testament where the Jews rebelled and lost the land.

This !

Is Israel killing thousands of civilians not horrific enough to move you? Children burned by white phosphorus, having amputations without anaesthetic, premature babies left without oxygen to die, some of them alone, children slowly dying under the rubble. Thousands and thousands of innocent precious children murdered.

You don't think this is horrific, it's just "war"?

As we speak hundreds of thousands of people are starving and have no water, shelter or healthcare.

Is this not cruel and savage?

So it is a bilateral ceasefire you (and your list of organisations) are calling for?

Great. Except Hamas has said they will repeat the attack we saw on 7/10 until Israel no longer exists. So what is Israel to do? Hamas won’t agree to a ceasefire. All of the organisations you listed know this. It is in effect calling for a unilateral ceasefire where Israel stops attempting to remove Hamas and Hamas regroups and is allowed to once again attack the civilians of Israel.

That is an excellent way of putting it.

It definitely reflects my thoughts that a lot of people on the left are almost afraid to stand up in their political meetings and council chambers and say ‘hang on a minute, this isn’t right’ when colleagues wander off into genuine anti-Semitism.

I edited because I misread your post, apologies.

Israel is literally wiping Gaza off the map to claim it as their own. A ceasefire is a necessary first step. We can't go back to how things were - Israel has to accept that it treated Palestinians horrendously and Hamas has to stops firing rockets. Israel has to give back land it stole too for there to be any chance of peace.

Most of these people (who I know, anyway, and those who’d call themselves left wing) would never attempt to defend ISIS or the Taliban, for example. But are falling over themselves to blame Israel for Hamas’ terrorist attack and the need for Israel’s response.

Why is it?

But people do speak out for the civilians in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq. That's the equivalent.

Yes, I think that’s a very good point. A tendency for the left to always seek a victim and view it as black and white.

Of course it's cruel and savage. It's amost as cruel as 7 Oct, without the deliberate sadism. But why are you blaming Israel, and not Hamas? Why is no one admitting that Hamas is not just a few people in Gaza, but leaders who don't even live there, supported wildly by citizens who are so under the thumb that they can't see any other way?

She's right though.
She said Hamas have the right to resist occupation, not that they are "the resistance". Everyone knows hamas are terrorists.

And yes Israel are responsible for the citizens. Firstly because they are considered to be occupying Gaza, they control the borders. There is no way of getting food, water, medicine into Gaza without Israel's permission.

Secondly because in conflict the military have a duty to only target military objectives and to protect civilians as far as possible.

Hamas' actions were barbaric but that doesn't mean Israel can formulate whatever response they like. They still have to comply with the law.

Why does Israel not stop it's constant onslaught of attack including rape murder imprisonment burning of land takeover of homes and curtailing of basic human rights on Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank?

Maybe by learning to co exist in peace and give rights to Palestinians (in their own country ffs), there would be no need for brutal resistance, the existence of a terrorist group or attacks.

Israel and its supporters need to take a long, hard look at their own govt, policies and barbarities. Maybe for a moment stop looking at simply Hamas as the sole perpetrators and attackers against a peaceful and loving Israel and start looking at Israels own actions and starting from there. This is not a random attack by a crazed man on a person eating fruit merrily on a roadside as you would like to believe. It's about two evil factions fighting each other and everyone in between getting caught in the crossfire. Israel is as evil as Hamas can be, except that it's a legal elected government that likes to call itself moral and just and Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation.

We seem to have moved away from OPs original topic, which was whether her left leaning friends Facebook feeds indicate a bigger problem of antisemitism on "the left".