What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

@AdamRyan disease is on the rise which could eventually kill more people than the bombing itself

No, they clearly are not. Honestly shocked anyone is trying to defend them.

The guilty parties are Hamas and the Israeli government/IDF. - not the Palestinians and Israelis populations.

Both Hamas and the IDF have committed atrocities and war crimes.

offwiththe circus

this sounds like a very big generalisation - as much as saying any racial group is less intelligent - can you back this up?

Ashkenazis are not a "racial group" - they are a tiny ethnic group. This is important because these results could not be sustained in a large "racial" group.

This is one of the papers giving these results, and it cites a number of others. Note that it describes how Ashkenazi nonverbal intelligence is actually lower than the mean on average: this brings down the overall IQ score to 110-115.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/natural-history-of-ashkenazi-intelligence/170E96F5581A9F39524DAC717886D945

You can read a pdf of this journal article [see pages 3-4] at https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/46568400/cochran2005-libre.pdf?1466170614=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DNATURAL_HISTORY_OF_ASHKENAZI_INTELLIGENC.pdf&Expires=1702577202&Signature=OrPhRIsvAGQLa~j~pvAnZkFZJ5hR4O5zfajnXIWLk8Gbfc8WlZR7BVIXKazKhJRGe6EjOh8P-VWuEnFbYT9qbIZuvLSbnx8nT4f4UC8yAtmrR859VbIBKv1NxqFNUzx6I-o7~NYwz1BXt3Ufe5YEfEiJqe~Zykmf5A0Vorl0WoO57a2cNEkDPKlwG1Rwdl-OsHNq8ZC878uQZQCuXb9FIKKiWZoQuPamdOvQ-iJnuuPgQhJZmWR4WT76z0Lm2c56AXQuAliLuY-QdpNbnmsImIEcMEFu-OKFCp0ClEOTV5pKu98NwvkKsTkUS70ORFZ-8PJ013qb0kjVo~VBFBpcfA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

My apologies, I thought you were suggesting that they weren’t a fundamentally Islamic group.

Yes, they don’t say “we want to kill all the Jews”, because they’re not idiots, and are very well aware of propaganda. But here is where they say essentially that, in their original charter:

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)
"The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)
"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)
"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32) (emphasis mine)

now, they don’t actually say “we want to kill all the Jews” in exactly those words. But tell me what that looks like to you.

@Hiddenmnetter that rings a bell.

Only when the Jews are involved, and there’s a group setup to kill Jews, do you have to sit there arguing to convince people that this group, which has just murdered raped tortured and kidnapped more than 1,000 Jews, actually wants to kill Jews. I mean fuck me…the effort involved.

Still, not really about why the left have a problem with anti-semitism.

apple.news/Abh0Bujd8TDyhwUFQWCbtXw

News of arrests over Hamas plot in Europe.

Well. I still haven't seen anything on this thread to suggest the left have more of a problem with anti semitism than the right. It keeps being asserted as a fact, but there appears to be no evidence other than anecdote.
olddad posted the link saying leave voters were most likely to be antisemitic in the UK
A quick Google turned up this:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/10659129221111081

Contrary to the expectation of horseshoe theory, the data show the epicenter of antisemitic attitudes is young adults on the far right. [in the US]

In a UK study, Staetsky (2020) finds higher rates of antisemitic views among British respondents who identify as far right

In Europe, Cohen (2018b) finds lower support for Jewish immigration on the right than on the center or left.

The article also discusses a lot of hypotheses about antisemitism on the right and left.

In their conclusions:
We find overt antisemitic attitudes are rare on the left but common on the right, particularly among young adults on the right. Even when primed with information that most U.S. Jews have favorable views toward Israel—a country disfavored by the ideological left—respondents on the left rarely support statements such as that Jews have too much power or should be boycotted.
We find evidence on the left of anti-Jewish double standards compared to Muslim Americans and Indian Americans. The right exhibits strong anti-Muslim double standards. However, in these measures too, the anti-Jewish attitudes on the left are small in magnitude compared to the anti-Jewish attitudes on the right.

Fascinating article

Muslims and Jews fighting is not something for now. It is a hadith which is narrated in various books. This is referring to the end of time when it we will come ro judgement day. Muslims believe Jesus will be resurrected during that time and the false messiah will come to lead people astray. The Jews are believed to follow the false messiah and they will fight with the Muslims vice versa. There will be some who will not and will follow Jesus. You can't say islam is against Jews because we haven't come to the end of time, anyone claiming it will have to be one who is not following the rules of islam. Which allows you to only wage war when it comes to your land or if war is waged on you.

That can't be right - myself and several others have been shouted down multiple times by people on here for suggesting Hamas won't just be limiting their terrorism to within Israel's borders. That they're actually just quite murderous and terroristy in general and don't really care about the Palestinian cause. Unless you're suggesting that these posters have got it all wrong?!

I don’t think the thread was about comparing the left with the right, but asking why the left are currently being anti semitic, in the context of the October attacks.

Hmm. Again, all I've seen is random comments about posters friends.
It's a bit of a moot point by page 40 tho

Random comments about posters friends? Odd, because there's been numerous articles posted about antisemitism on the left, here and other threads. So if you choose to ignore them, that's on you.

Quite.

They are bonkers enough in their original charter that id that's what they thought, I think they'd have said it.

The nearest bit of the original charter which could be interpreted as killing all Jews is your quote from Article 7, though I think (I'm not Muslim...) that's a quote from the Quran. I think it's a stretch to say that they're soon is to kill all Jews based on that.

My dispute was that you said that their charter literally calls for the killing of all Jews. It doesn't. In the original charter, there is clear antisemitism and certain sections (like the quote in article 7) do imply a wider hatred/wish to kill. Balanced against that are the sections about coexistence. Having a belief that Jews and Muslims will fight at Armageddon doesn't mean it's something that they necessarily want to happen. The Christian faith days that God people who don't believe go to hell - that doesn't mean that Christians want this, just that it's a belief for many as to how it will play out. Still, i think it's the most damning section.

I'd settle for the original charter being antisemitic, violent and very much an Islamic fundamentalist organisation.

The new charter is a very different beast. It's clearly written to make them sound more conciliatory. If it wasn't for 07/10 I might have almost believed that was because they'd actually mellowed...

Still as we are analysing the wording of documents here, that document is very clear that it doesn't have a problem with Jews, just the state of Israel and Zionism.

There's enough genuine bad that both sides here that insisting a document says something it doesn't isn't helpful at all. It's also really bugging the lawyer in me as I hate inaccuracy.

Every single thread on the conflict in the Middle East is exactly the same.

Yes!

Articles are still opinion pieces though. I prefer facts.

I seem to recall plenty of leave voters hating articles about them being ill informed/racist etc. Because they were opinion pieces.

The facts appear to suggest the left is less anti semitic than the right

And I've also been caught out by believing all the posters who say the Hamas charter says they want to kill all Jews. Surprised to find this isn't the case. That's a very widespread misconception then

It's a quote from hadiths which are saying from the prophet (pbuh). It isn't what's to happen now but states what will happen at the end of time when Jesus will be ressurected and the false messiah will come. Not something which can be implied to today's ongoing conflict which I with others call a genocide

Inability to recognise antisemitism on the left, and a refusal to admit it's a problem when it is identified.

Antisemitism is rampant on the far-left. If you choose to ignore Jews telling you that, then there's nothing more to say. Would you also downplay racism highlighted by other ethnic minority groups? Rhetorical question btw.

And again, this isn't about antisemitism on the right, which as Jews, trust me, we're very well aware of. Because as has been repeatedly mentioned, it's not quite so covert, and therefore much easier to identify.

I condemn Hamas.
I am not anti-Semitic but it is OK to criticise the iDF and Israeli Government
Israel helped create Hamas
Israel is committing a genocide or possibly a genocide
The IDF are committing terrible atrocities
The UN are passing resolutions for a ceasefire but the UK and USA are abstaining
Biden is wagging his finger at Israel
Israel is losing support around the world and becoming a harder place for Jews to live in
We need a 2 party state
Rinse and repeat ad infinitum

I condemn Hamas.
I am not anti-Semitic but it is OK to criticise the iDF and Israeli Government
Israel helped create Hamas
Israel is committing a genocide or possibly a genocide
The IDF are committing terrible atrocities
The UN are passing resolutions for a ceasefire but the UK and USA are abstaining
Biden is wagging his finger at Israel
Israel is losing support around the world and becoming a harder place for Jews to live in
We need a 2 party state
Rinse and repeat ad infinitum