Thread 2 To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

First thread here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4916801-to-think-hamas-have-given-israel-the-excuse-they-were-looking-for?page=38

Apologies if covered previously, you all lost me for 5-6 pages.

I expect one if the most highly sophisticated well funded security services and army in the world to be able to use ground forces and intelligence networks & massive funding to find Hamas operatives & attempt to bring them to justice. If they are unable to take them alive so be it, but they should try. I won't cry for Hamas terrorists if they are killed in the process.

Hamas has a habit of using human shields - people and also civilian infrastructure. If, for example, the IDF finds rocket launching infrastructure on the roof of a hospital or the grounds of a school - what then? What would you do here?

I’m a Jew. I don’t endorse the current Israeli government. But I don’t understand what a moral solution is to the problem above.

@TheWayTheLightFalls

sadly I agree and I don't think any of us on here do despite my hopes.

But the current strategy isn't one.

Without a genuine progressive opposition to Bibi and the Kahanist coalition within Israel I don't see a way out of this for innocent Israelis or Palestinians

& I also fear the rampant consequences for Jews & Muslims in the rest of the world as antisemitism and islamophobia runs riot.

It's fucking heartbreaking

@beachcitygirl "I expect sympathy, aid and help for the civilians of Gaza."

None of the neighbouring countries want to take any refugees for a start.

"murder a population that is mostly children."

How are the demographics of the population the responsibility of Israel? And the use of 'murder' is emotive and inaccurate because it implies a deliberate act, which it isn't.

"Including of course the 130 premature babies in hospital in Gaza currently in imminent danger of death due to lack of fuel because it's been switched off."

No-one has 'switched off' any fuel.
If Hamas appropriates the fuel to power rockets then Israel is not responsible for that. And it's not Israel's fault that there isn't an adequate solar power system.

Fuel was actually delivered today, so let's see if it gets to where it belongs.

Not falling for your whataboutery here.

130 premature babies.

So just stop with the justification.
We see you.

This is a fantastic thread (and podcast )
The Balfour Declaration & the Origins of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

x.com/dalrymplewill/status/1640556214907195392?s=46&t=CDaDBOo42AUxl1VZxDymlA

It is chilling reading this update
”In Gaza City, the IDF dropped leaflets written in Arabic that warned residents to evacuate to the south or face the possibility of being considered “a partner for the terrorist organization,” according to a CNN translation.
In a statement, the IDF confirmed it had dropped the flyers, but said there was “no intention to consider those who have not evacuated from the affected area of fighting as a member of the terrorist group.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/22/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-sunday-intl-hnk/index.html

I know what is probably coming next and it is too heartbreaking to post.
I worry that Netanhyu knows he will be ousted from government and on the way to a prison cell in The Hague and so doesn’t care anymore. He has no reason to stop the genocide.

Israel should do the equivalent of a no confidence motion or impeachment to remove him from office immediately.

That's good news about fuel for the hospital generators

Yesterday local people were bringing their own private supplies to one hospital that was on the verge of running out to keep things going

Good news. Like you say. Let's hope it gets to the right place/people

@rosemaryandparsley

The decision to bombard Gaza is a decision to massacre civilians, half of which are children. It was and is deliberate.

Secondly diesel fuel for generators is not rocket fuel. So your contention that Hamas appropriates fuel for rockets is wildly incorrect.

Israel is in fact responsible for the lack of power in Gaza. It was part of the blockade and is now part of the siege to deny them power.

Fuel was actually delivered today, so let's see if it gets to where it belongs.
I have only seen reports stating no fuel has been delivered yet.

Hamas has released 2 more hostages

Reuters

More depressing & worrying to say the least.

Israeli national security minister Itamar Ben Gvir, who has previously been convicted by Israel of supporting terrorism, distributes weapons to settlers in the occupied West Bank.

More Zionist pogroms of Palestinians are coming.

as reported by Dan Cohen (Reuters & un captured news ) video available at link below.

x.com/dancohen3000/status/1716463538850410879?s=46&t=CDaDBOo42AUxl1VZxDymlA

Isn’t that what SWAT and military infantry teams are for? If terrorists had a rocket launcher on a primary school in Birmingham, we would never air strike the school with all the kids inside. Or encircle Birmingham and lay a siege on it and bombard the whole city- we’d send in teams to evacuate the kids, and seize the rocket launcher.

Well, I saw footage yesterday from the Rafa crossing yesterday, and unless my eyes are deceiving me I saw 3 petrol tankers going through.

And here's the report;

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20231022-rare-fuel-delivery-enters-gaza-israel-steps-up-strikes

So can we stop the emotive, inaccurate rhetoric about ' murdering prem babies' please?

On what Israelis support that hasn’t been spoken about much

Netanyahu is held responsible for failures but at same time a limited poll indicated that 65% of Israelis were in support of the expected ground invasion of Gaza by Israeli troops.

(Limited meaning a 4.3% margin of error)

Yep support for IDF was good

But trust in Netanyahu was only in the 35% range

Israel has been collecting intelligence for decades and has been stopping known terrorists for decades - just as they hunted down and killed or captured Nazi fugitives - and it continues to do so. But that’s not enough to stop the mass of Iranian-backed terrorism.

When the nation and its people are threatened with destruction it’s proper and justifiable that Israel defends itself generally.

@WhiteHorseSpirit" Isn’t that what SWAT and military infantry teams are for? If terrorists had a rocket launcher on a primary school in Birmingham, we would never air strike the school with all the kids inside. Or encircle Birmingham and lay a siege on it and bombard the whole city- we’d send in teams to evacuate the kids, and seize the rocket launcher."

It's a bit different in Gaza with snipers and booby traps. Hamas even booby trap kids bags and dead bodies.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/video-hamas-leaves-behind-booby-trapped-israeli-childrens-bags-4505861

https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/hamas-killed-mom-in-front-of-her-two-young-boys-booby-trapped-her-body/

So

@rosemaryandparsley just to be very very clear here.

Are you in support of the siege on Gaza and the collective punishment of 2.2 million Palestinians?

Including no food water or electricity or escape from the Israeli bombing.

Are you ok with the breaking of international law ?

Those were not fuel tankers. No fuel has gone into Gaza as of 2 hours ago. Israel is not allowing any delivery of diesel fuel - which again cannot be used for rockets.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/third-aid-convoy-starts-entering-gaza-but-still-no-fuel/ar-AA1iIjYK

And Reuters is reporting 130 babies in the NICU will die tonight if no power caused by no fuel.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-neonatal-unit-warns-babies-risk-within-minutes-if-power-fails-2023-10-23/

There is nothing inaccurate about the dire conditions in Gaza.

Terrorist tactics are the same everywhere. Snipers, IEDs, that is not new or different.

The blockade, siege, mass bombardment and now only allowing a trickle of aid is not self defence. These are war crimes.

Isn’t that what SWAT and military infantry teams are for? If terrorists had a rocket launcher on a primary school in Birmingham, we would never air strike the school with all the kids inside. Or encircle Birmingham and lay a siege on it and bombard the whole city- we’d send in teams to evacuate the kids, and seize the rocket launcher.

Sure - Israel seems to have a lot of those, I think the military generally is highly trained and highly motivated (and well funded). But from their POV, to use your example, the whole of Birmingham contains armed terrorists (not to be interpreted as every Brummie being a terrorist, faod). I don't endorse the killing of innocent civilians here (ISR) or there, and I hope and pray that Israel is acting to identify and eliminate legitimate military targets - I hope that a desire for revenge and hatred towards Hamas doesn't lead to indiscriminate violence against ordinary Palestinians. But I'm not them, and I don't have the information about why x or y building is bombed. And unfortunately the info coming out of Gaza comes from Hamas, who are about as reliable as a used car salesman on charlie. So Hamas saying "Look, Israel dropped a bomb and it killed eleventy million Gazans!" unfortunately doesn't register with me unless it's been verified by a reputable third party. So we can't even base our discussion around agreed facts of who has bombed/attacked what. It's all a huge, huge mess.