Thread 2 To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

First thread here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4916801-to-think-hamas-have-given-israel-the-excuse-they-were-looking-for?page=38

@WhiteHorseSpirit https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/22/israel-strikes-gaza-syria-and-west-bank-as-war-against-hamas-threatens-to-escalate_6194679_4.html

Some confusing information here, it seems...

As usual @TheWayTheLightFalls measured sensible discussion with yourself.

I agree in part but the videos of Gaza in total destruction are clear to see & the plea by MAP are heartbreaking.
The reports by reputable journalists & foreign correspondents & videos such as the mother In law of Scotlands First Minister trapped in Gaza with her 2 month old grandchild can't be ignored nor are they manufactured.
Those prem babies are still going to die most likely.

I agree propaganda is rife on both sides. That's why on last thread I begged a few posters for caution when repeating stories without proper third party respected media confirmation.

Its desperate

No-one is 'trying to massacre civilians'.

There is no military advantage to killing civilians.

Because Hamas inserts itself among civilians then any 'surgical strikes' may well have unintended casualties.

I never said diesel could be used for firing rockets, I said I saw petrol tankers entering Gaza - and here are more pictures ;

https://www.voanews.com/a/more-aid-moves-into-gaza-but-un-warns-of-impending-fuel-shortage/7321523.html

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-first-fuel-trucks-war-torn-gaza-through-rafah-border-from-egypt-4504983

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rare-fuel-delivery-enters-gaza-085619531.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMkmy77IHFunxTSFDaecaKqwHUzO7CGfUVbw_AJzf-Fb-bowdNgc-vWXLDn2jBYYh75P3GK6Doj_Bji-gU9ldI285NLYKbivQYDK697uPF0UPK-NjNDHv81EBDt7FGhB9-8tGxfh6oyQSnFfdzzYxlnOP9W3D3Ai8B3g_peptVLD

Whether they're trying or not, it's happening.

I'm not arguing with that.

It's a war.

A war that Israel didn't start.

That is excellent news.

That doesn't give the government carte blanche to commit war crimes and wipe out Gaza, they could stop the killing, but won't.

"commit war crimes"

War Crimes are decided by the International Criminal Court, not by posters on SM.

"wipe out Gaza,"

There is no military advantage to 'wiping out Gaza'. If Israel had wanted to do that Gaza would be a smoking ruin by now.

"they could stop the killing, but won't."

The Allies could have 'stopped the killing' in WW2. Then in UK we would all be living under a fascist regime now and speaking German. Also there wouldn't be a Jew left alive in UK.

In fact you and I might not even exist.

Very bizarre post. I am aware war crimes aren't decides by, well, me...? Many reputable organisations and experts have posited that the Israeli government have committed war crimes, historically as well as in the current conflict.

I don't think they have decided not to wipe out Gaza. It is a possibility and it is certainly getting bombed heavily every day with more buildings being destroyed.

Yes, that is a very brief summary of WW2, a completely different war with completely different situations.

They are massacring civilians. They are doing more than “trying”, it is happening.

Because Hamas inserts itself among civilians Rubbish. Hamas is underground in the tunnels. The air strikes cannot get them.

There is a military advantage to killing civilians and that is why international laws were written post WWII to make collective punishment of civilians war crimes.

Also, the earlier reports that these were fuel tankers was later corrected, they contained water not fuel. No fuel has gone into Gaza
”There are sufficient supplies of fuel waiting to be loaded onto trucks and transported into Gaza via the Rafah border crossing, but Dujarric demurred when asked why the UN has so far been unable to get any fuel shipments into the occupied territory.
"I don't want to go into all the details. What I can tell you is that we want to get fuel in we haven't been able to get all the hurdles moved for us to get that fuel in," he said when asked by a reporter why the UN has not been able to ship fuel in yet.” As of 2 hours ago.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/un-says-lack-of-fuel-in-gaza-of-great-concern-as-supplies-run-out/3030324
“Cairo, 23 October 2023 (TDI): Aid deliveries entering Gaza have not included fuel. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) faces an imminent crisis as its fuel reserves are set to be depleted within the next three days.
Expressing deep concern, UNRWA’s Commissioner General, Philippe Lazzarini, urgently called for immediate action to allow fuel supplies into Gaza.
He emphasized, “No fuel will further strangle the children, women, and people of Gaza,” highlighting the critical need for swift intervention to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe in the region.”
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-16-enarhe

Only if time began on 7 Oct 2023. You know as well as I do, that this is a long running conflict.

Your video confirms no fuel entered Gaza…Israel itself is saying it denies any fuel sent in. The UN says no fuel went in. What happened is reporters thought some tanker lorries had fuel in them but they did not.

@rosemaryandparsley

You said, and I quote you word for word
“If Hamas appropriates the fuel to power rockets” as an excuse for why no humanitarian aid should include fuel even if over a hundred more babies die.

The fuel is diesel fuel. That is the fuel generators run on. Not rocket fuel.

Now you refuse to admit what you said was patently impossible:

“I never said diesel could be used for firing rockets..”

Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2007? They continued to provide water, power, food etc and employ people from Gaza. Israel after being subjected to genocide by Hamas - footage has been shown to journalists today from bodycam and evidence shown that women and children were to be targeted for abduction and torture, a terrorist 'phoning home' to say he had personally murdered 14 Jews, a father protecting his sons and being killed by a grenade, his sons blinded and missing, need I go on.....
Now tell me why after all time and misappropriation of funds by Hamas Israel owes it anything? It's entitled under international law 'a robust response' and that's what it's doing.
Hamas hide behind their civilians and are protected by people either by fear or misplaced loyalty.
They need eradication.

Next post contains upsetting information....

War Crimes are decided by the International Criminal Court, not by posters on SM.

True, and the ICJ is currently prosecuting Israel for the war crimes of the blockade and occupation which was opened last December. I am 100% positive more prosecutions will be filed for the current atrocities.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/world-court-to-hold-public-hearings-over-consequences-from-israels-occupation/ar-AA1iIklc

I just wish Israel did a bloodless coup or no confidence vote or impeachment or whatever it takes to simply remove those who are giving these orders and replacing them with sensible leaders. A recent survey said the vast majority of Israelis blame Netanhyu for the current hostilities starting and this escalation.
“An overwhelming majority of 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country's leadership”https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880

While 1,400 dead is a horrific atrocity, so is the current one of over 5,000 dead with an ongoing death toll of 100 children per day. Surely anyone who sees all lives as equal would want to stop the continuing death and carnage?

Israel withdrew military troops from Gaza in 2005, at which time they imposed the blockade. The temporary blockade became permanent in 2007 after Hamas came to power by rigged electioneering. Gaza was and is still Israeli occupied territory- it has never had any semblance of self-rule.

Israel is responsible for the well being of civilians in its occupied territories. This is international law. This means, not massacring them. Not starving them of food and water. Not denying medical care. Not dropping thousands of bombs and shells on them.

@Stomacharmeleon

Did you actually just say that "they need eradication"

What, like a final solution?

Beyond contempt.

Mumsnet HQ please please please investigate @Stomacharmeleon & ban this person.

Yeah that sort of rhetoric by @Stomacharmeleon is inciting genocide.

Hamas needs eradication. The terrorists.
I have been on here years and am entitled to my opinion as you are yours.
It's on the bbc now.

@WhiteHorseSpirit @beachcitygirl

@Stomacharmeleon wrote this:
"Hamas hide behind their civilians and are protected by people either by fear or misplaced loyalty. They need eradication."

What is wrong with saying that?

So you don't agree Hamas need eradicating?

It’s dehumanising on several levels.

Hamas has no civilians, so saying “Hamas hide behind their civilians” lumps Palestinians in with Hamas terrorists. Then claiming “Hamas are protected by” Palestinians implies they deserve the same as Hamas as terrorist sympathisers or accessories to terrorism. And then saying “They need eradicated” is collective- Hamas and “their civilians” and the word ‘eradicated’ is a word that means kill them all and is used for nonhumans- like “eradicate smallpox” or ‘eradicate bedbugs”

Please have a read of this:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/16/the-language-being-used-to-describe-palestinians-is-genocidal

You can't dehumanise those who aren't human (Hamas).

rosemaryandparsley · Today 19:38

I'm afraid that your view is quite naive. Israel has blockaded Gaza and only a fraction of the necessities of life are getting through.

The Israelis (and all countries waging war, of course) have a duty to protect civilians and to do their best to avoid civilian casualties. Cutting off the water is antithetical to that solid, legal obligation; it's a war crime, just as it was when the Americans did it in Fallujah and Najaf.

Do you think it's humane for them to blockade fuel for hospital generators?

Wars are supposed to be governed by international treaties, with punishments for transgressors.