Channel 4 News report into IDF evidence for Gaza hospital bombing

[Mammillaria]

This was released yesterday but doesn't seem to have been given much coverage, possibly because it's not been able to draw any conclusions.

x.com/Channel4News/status/1715437877604049094?s=20

I had found the evidence presented by the IDF to be fairly convincing, so I found this an unsettling watch (even though it does not prove that they were responsible).

I expect I shall get criticism from those who have claimed from the start that the IDF are liars, and more criticism from those who see posting this as siding with the terrorist narrative.

I'm still struggling to fully comprehend the enormity and nuances of this conflict.

I think its unlikely that the likes of me are ever going to be able to decipher and understand what is the truth and what isnt

The problem with various countries, including the UK giving 'proof' is that we are all allies of each other and allies of Israel, so I cant imagine that France or Canada (as cited above) are ever going to say that there is a problem with the evidence because we're all allies together.

Its the WMD issue again, which I whole heartedly believed at the time.

Ch4 did platform Hamas, they had Osama Hamdan on after the terrorist attacks.

This is the problem of viewing various groups as 'equal' to each other as well, why are Hamas being given air time, they're a terrorist group

But then as I write this, I remember it also goes back to the years that the IRA had voice overs so that their actual words couldnt be spoken by them specifically and yet along came the Good Friday Agreement. You might say though that the IRA were terrorists we could negotiate with whereas Hamas are not.

I saw the woman with bloodstained trousers being bundled into a car but didn't see the other footage you speak of.

That footage has haunted me.

I don't know why we are being lied to and deceived by our media. I'm utterly confused by the whole situation. It's civilians that are collateral damage once again. It's natural to feel such despair for the Palestinians and their impoverished lives but Israeli citizens have the right to live in peace without threat or attack. I don't understand why there's such support for Israel from the West but no support for Palestine. Why do our leaders seem to be turning a blind eye to the situation in Gaza?

Hamas are â murderous, terrorist organisation. Their hatred of Jews is their driving force. They are not freedom fighters. They don't seem to care about their own people.

I do think it depends how sane the end goal of the organisation is.
So say for instance the ANC, end goal was equal rights for all South Africans. Any sane, fair person would find that entirely reasonable.
Hamas the goal is the complete destruction of Israel. What does anyone do with that?

Well Israels plan seems to be to commit war crimes, crimes against humanity and acts of terror. I think the question we should be asking at this point is what the world does with a country like that? Western democratic countries shouldn't be supporting state sanctioned terrorism.

It's a really difficult situation. The events in Gaza are heartbreaking. I genuinely don't know how Israel is meant to deal with a terrorist organisation intent on wiping it out and heavily embedded in a densely populated area. I can't see any easy answers.

Hamas have stated this goal where?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/8/what-is-the-group-hamas-a-simple-guide-tothe-palestinian-group

This is the problem with not allowing us to hear their spokespeople. We hear Netanyatu, we hear Biden, we hear UN etc. but we only hear about Hamas. So its easy for people to believe they want to destroy all of Israel, they kill their own people, they are terrorists, extremists, etc. People believe those with whom they feel comfortable, i.e. who look like them and sound like them. Therefore analogies with South Africa, apartheid and the ANC are entirely appropriate in this instance.

My post was in reply to @SomeCatFromJapan

@bellac11 Hamas offered to return 2 hostages yesterday. Israel denied them and carried on carpet bombing Gaza. It's estimated that Israel have killed 22 of their hostages while bombing. To me ira clear that Hamas can be negotiated with.

@WildBactrian here is the Hamas charter:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

Israel are always bleating on about how everyone wants to kill them

I used to think that too. Then I saw footage from the terrorist attacks and realised it wasn't "bleating".

I’m sure pp would do more than ‘bleat’ given reality

PP will say

That's not a valid source - Al Jazheera is owned by Qatar so is biassed

The annihilation of Israel was in their first manifesto ?1987 - it's been re-drafted since then about 10 years ago

Well even from the first reading of the first couple of paragraphs 'we do accept Israel as a state, we dont accept Israel as a state, we dont have an issue with Jews, we do have an issue with Jews, we do recognise the 1967 borders, we dont recognise the 1967 borders.........

They aren't just 'events' in Gaza though. We need to call it what it is. It is Israel killing 1000s of women and children, by their own words they are looking for damage over accuracy. Israel are with holding aid purposefully. Israel are purposefully withholding fuel, water and food. These aren't just 'events', they are acts of terror and they are crimes against humanity. There is nothing complicated about it. These laws that Israel are purposefully breaking are there for a reason. They are there to protect the most vulnerable. We must hold Israel to the same standards we hold other countries and stop excusing state sanctioned terrorism and the ongoing murder of 1000s women of children.

Hamas have not been entirely non-platformed. Times Radio did an interview with a spokesman the other day here:

And the Saudis did one here:

Hamas official says group ‘well aware’ of consequences of attack on Israel, Palestinian liberation comes with ‘sacrifices’ (arabnews.com)

I think it's fair to say that Hamas come out very badly from both interviews.

@SomeCatFromJapan you've proven my point with your source. Largely US intelligence and media reports. But did you even read the whole thing?
@Efacsen you're right, people will think a respected international news channel like Aljazeera is biased and unreliable because it's based in an Arab country where people 'aren't like us.'

@SomeCatFromJapan

Maybe stop treating Palestinians like "human animals"? That would be a start.

This.

@WildBactrian even the updated charter is wildly contradictory:

"advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15] The new document also states that the group doesn't seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for "occupation of Palestine"."

I did over the last few years genuinely believe that Hamas had softened theor stance. The Israelis did too - there were more Gazans given permits to cross to border to work in Israel, for instance.

But then the terrorist attack happened. And those actions spoke very loudly.

Palestinian ambassador to the UK sums it up:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/video/dehumanising-palestinians-needs-to-end/vi-AA1hSqSK?ocid=socialshare&pc=U591&cvid=27bc772779ad447e9fc93aeb79ded8b5&ei=15

i agree with you that this is a human rights violation and abhorrent, but also Palestine is complicit in not having their own fuel sources, water pipes and food. They receive billions in aid, famously hamas used money sent for water pipes to make them independent from Israel water on making bombs to attack Israel. So how much is Israel and how much is being responsible for their own situation? But jobs and infrastructure and food would make the population comfortable and Hamas wouldn’t be able to manipulate and control them. Which they do from their mansions in Qatar. Israel have invested in defending themselves after being under constant attack, made an iron dome, train conscripts, precisely because of the relentless attack from people who would rather live in nothing and spend all that they’re given on annihilating their neighbour. And when their neighbour has better weapons decry it as unfair. I am deeply sympathetic to the situation a the Palestinian people and women and children who are collateral damage in this mess but it’s certainly not as black and white as saying Israel is bad for being on an aggressive defensive after what happened on 7th October, and all Palestinians are innocent victims.