Channel 4 News report into IDF evidence for Gaza hospital bombing

[Mammillaria]

This was released yesterday but doesn't seem to have been given much coverage, possibly because it's not been able to draw any conclusions.

x.com/Channel4News/status/1715437877604049094?s=20

I had found the evidence presented by the IDF to be fairly convincing, so I found this an unsettling watch (even though it does not prove that they were responsible).

I expect I shall get criticism from those who have claimed from the start that the IDF are liars, and more criticism from those who see posting this as siding with the terrorist narrative.

I'm still struggling to fully comprehend the enormity and nuances of this conflict.

I did over the last few years genuinely believe that Hamas had softened theor stance. The Israelis did too - there were more Gazans given permits to cross to border to work in Israel, for instance.

That cancels out the evil of the occupation and control does it? How very kind of them.

And what does liberation even mean? “Free Palestine” is a lovely soundbite, but really they mean wiping out the Israeli population and Israel. Which is already mostly made up of middle easterners who were forced to leave other Middle Eastern countries due to their religion.

Palestine are given enough aid money to being freeing themselves if only they invested it in the betterment of citizens rather than weapons and terrorism.

Israel have systemically made it impossible - illegal - for Palestinaians in Gaza to be self sufficient. They pour cement into water pipes, the bombed and destroyed the only electrical power plant I Gaza, and fisherman can only fish a very limited and shallow area off the coast.

I cant believe i have to say this, but Israel is not some benign benefactor for the Palestinians. Israel has got 2 million of them caged in a small area (Gaza) and they limit the food and supplies. Those Palestinians have no rights. They cannot leave Gaza or make their lives better. And now Israel are indiscriminately carpet bombing those people, while simultaneously keeping every crossing out of Gaza closed. Whole families are being slaughtered. Hospitals, schools, residential areas, mosques, a church. Its genocide.

That cancels out the evil of the occupation and control does it? How very kind of them.

I don't think Israel is free of faults at all. But the failure to reach a lasting peaceful solution cannot be laid exclusively at their door, and a lot of their actions do stem from a need to safeguard the security of their population.

Or, you could consider the Holocaust.

When people say they want to kill Jews, history tells us that they should be taken very seriously.

This is why Holocaust denial is big among anti-semites.

I genuinely don’t know what the answer is, but having read some of the forensic reports from the 7 October massacre, they are the worst atrocities I’ve ever read about. I don’t blame Israel for wanting to wipe out Hamas, what they have done is beyond comprehension. Hamas have admitted they laid low, pretending to govern Gaza while they planned this. Hamas demonstrably don’t care about Palestinians. Having seen and heard what they did, I also believe they’re not above lying and fabricating “evidence” to suit their agenda.

I also note that while Hamas claim they have run out of water, food and fuel for citizens, they have not run out of rockets to fire into Israel.

I am not Israeli or Jewish, by the way, I actually come from a Muslim family though I am atheist now. My sympathy was with the Palestinians for many years, but these atrocities have firmly switched my sympathies.

So Palestine isn’t its own country with its own government who decided where its resources go? They never do anything to provoke Israel or threaten them, they have zero support from other countries world wide or in the Middle East. They are completely free of all consequences for all the choices that lead to this point. Again I don’t agree with Israel’s actions but I’m sick of this white saviour narrative that the west has towards Palestine. They could have a two state solution and peace if they wanted it more than they want the annihilation of Israel. But their leaders don’t, and here we are. And I, in my 6th month of pregnancy hormones literally cry every day thinking about it.

Here's a senior Hamas leader in 2021 saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist

https://news.sky.com/story/hamas-co-founder-ceasefire-will-hold-for-now-but-no-peace-with-israel-without-justice-for-palestinians-12315339

It seems when a ‘democratic’ country sanctions terrorism all ‘democracies’ have to support it and call it defence. Then you can do whatever you want under that banner. We have seen this before with the behaviour of US, Iraq war, the existence of Guantanamo Bay. As long as you continue to state you are a ‘democracy’ you can get away with unthinkable acts openly.

By being democratic it literally means we have put in place leaders who represent us and we stand behind what our leaders say and do. Their actions stand for us. In turn then when outsiders feel the countries actions are unacceptable they respond by terrorist acts towards the entire people (the people who stood behind and all theoretically supported those actions).

I don’t know what the Israeli people thought about Netanyahu’s oppressive policies. I don’t know whether most Israelis turned a blind eye or actively supported it but it seems that as long as the rights of women, economic development, LGBTQ etc within Israel were protected, whatever he was doing in their name to other humans didn’t affect them. This really confuses me about the west’s obsession with democracy. Such big nasty things get done under that label but as long as they happen to others outside of the country and the people in the country get their rights and parties it’s fine.

The worst atrocities you've ever read about? What about everything that Israel has done to civilians since then? Does killing innocent children not count as an atrocity?

This is not about ending Hamas, Israel could do that without killing thousands of Palestinians. This is about wiping out an entire race.
Israel wanted Hamas to take charge, anyway, so that they had an "excuse" for this genocide, which is what they've always wanted to do.

I don’t think you are very well read then. You must do a bit of googling.

This is not about ending Hamas, Israel could do that without killing thousands of Palestinians.

How, given that Hamas are using them as human shields?

Would love to hear your solution to that.

This is not about ending Hamas, Israel could do that without killing thousands of Palestinians.

Could you explain how?

This, in spades.
Two wrongs do not make a right and Israel's response is totally disproportionate. We know what the end goal is, they've told us and we have to just sit by and watch whilst the Palestinian people are annihilated.

Israel have a very well funded military, hugely backed by the USA. If modern warfare technology can find Bin Laden in a cave, they can do a better job of isolating Hamas.
It is not ok to annihilate a population because of one group.

And yet it’s Hamas that has “destroy Israel” and “kill the Jews” in their manifesto and talk about it in interviews and are known for this viewpoint through the Middle East. But sure it’s really a reverse uno.

your bias is showing when you think killing innocent Palestinian children is an atrocity but killing innocent Israeli ones isn’t.

This. The atrocities committed by Hamas were unspeakable. No-one can possibly try to reach a peace deal with such people. They use their own people as human shields as they are still launching rockets as Israel from peoples homes, schools and hospitals.

Gosh your comment is a very selective reporting of what was said in that article. The relevant section actually reads:

Asked if the State of Israel has the right to exist, he paused then said: "No. Why? You are coming from America and you take my house, you came from Britain and you took my brother's house, you took this. This is a settlement.

"You are not a citizen. We are the owner of this area - Arabic area. This is well known as an Islamic area."
Asked why Hamas was spending its money on missiles and rockets rather than on its people, he said: "Give me one example in the world where they have no military ministry to defend themselves?

"We are here protecting ourselves against aggression, against the Israeli aggression. So if it is forbidden, this is a hypocrisy."

Pressed once more on whether Hamas was prepared to share the land with Jews, he said: "We are not against Jews because Jews were living this area for many centuries. I'm speaking about occupation."

Killing any innocent children is disgusting. It's possible to condemn both.
Is what's going on now a fair retaliation? I don't believe it is.

Are you sure you want to reference the US response to the 9-11 attacks as 'tracking down Bin-Laden in a cave' and compare finding an entire terrorist organisation to one leader of another one?

Of course it’s not fair, it abhorrent, but it’s also not happened in a vacuum. Wars are never about fair retaliation they’re about winning. Maybe if Hamas hadn’t hidden so many munitions under schools and hospitals there would be fewer civilian casualties. Again I can’t stress enough how awful this is for Palestine but this is exactly what Hamas knew would happen and encouraged.

A fair retaliation would be rape, torture, hostage-taking. That isn't what the IDF is doing.

Noblegiraffe as a teacher and presumably someone who might actually care about children, even Arab ones, here is a question. How many children should die in the attempt to wipe out Hamas? Is there even a limit?

Gosh your comment is a very selective reporting of what was said in that article.

And yet entirely relevant to the discussion about what Hamas believes. Upthread there was discussion about whether Hamas accept Israel as a state. That senior leader says no.

I agree it’s relevant, but it is also important for readers to have the context rather than an isolated line which could be interpreted differently.