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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Channel 4 News report into IDF evidence for Gaza hospital bombing

269 replies

Mammillaria · 21/10/2023 22:34

This was released yesterday but doesn't seem to have been given much coverage, possibly because it's not been able to draw any conclusions.

x.com/Channel4News/status/1715437877604049094?s=20

I had found the evidence presented by the IDF to be fairly convincing, so I found this an unsettling watch (even though it does not prove that they were responsible).

I expect I shall get criticism from those who have claimed from the start that the IDF are liars, and more criticism from those who see posting this as siding with the terrorist narrative.

I'm still struggling to fully comprehend the enormity and nuances of this conflict.

https://x.com/channel4news/status/1715437877604049094?s=46&t=XYCkdDj61RZq8aLpTC4ujA

OP posts:
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Bookshipper · 22/10/2023 13:30

Have you seen the hundreds of thousands of people marching for a free Palestine across the world? The communities of Jewish people calling for a ceasefire in Washington and beyond?

The abuses of the Israeli government are so glaringly uncomplicated that they override all the propaganda and cognitive biases we are surrounded by in the west.

All we need is to really see it and wrap our minds around what we're seeing. The truth does the rest of the work.

SomeCatFromJapan · 22/10/2023 13:31

Once someone learns about the realities of the Palestinian people, they very seldom abandon their support for it, so every newly-opened pair of eyes stays open on this issue for a lifetime.

I've been supporting Palestine and empathising with its suffering since the '90s. My eyes were newly opened to the true nature of Hamas though two weeks ago. I had not previously acknowledged their role in the suffering in Gaza but I see it now.

EasternStandard · 22/10/2023 13:32

Bookshipper · 22/10/2023 13:23

Even though we can't do anything to materially change the plight of the people in Gaza or the West Bank, we can still talk about it.

Once someone learns about the realities of the Palestinian people, they very seldom abandon their support for it, so every newly-opened pair of eyes stays open on this issue for a lifetime.

What is your preferred outcome?

Are you against Israel existing or is it more the borders you contest

Original poster
Mammillaria · 22/10/2023 13:44

I think it is possible to recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation responsible for horrific atrocities and agree with Israel's need to defend themselves, whilst also being alert to potential war crimes.

OP posts:
Bookshipper · 22/10/2023 13:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SomeCatFromJapan · 22/10/2023 13:47

@Mammillaria that's a very reasonable position.

bellac11 · 22/10/2023 13:50

Its such a shame that posters have to compete over who is the most traumatised out of Israelis and Palestinians.

Unhelpful, hostile and serving no purpose at all

EasternStandard · 22/10/2023 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Who is this to?

You seem to be writing posts in response to something else

If you think Israel is illegitimate I am interested in what you are proposing in reality

Can you say what your preferred outcome is?

Generally posters say within established borders you are one of the few that seems to be saying otherwise

Teentaxidriver · 22/10/2023 14:18

ah the BBC: that famous bastion of truth. If you rely on the Beeb and Channel 4 for your facts and truth, no wonder you Ketchup are so misguided. The BBC is a conduit for terrorise propaganda.

Teentaxidriver · 22/10/2023 14:21

Terrorist

25milesfromhome · 22/10/2023 14:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Literally no-one has done that on this thread. But as you’ve brought it up apropos of nothing;
Accusing Jews of “crying antisemitism” as a “tactic” to shut down debate about the oppression of Palestinians is in itself antisemitic, congratulations!

caringcarer · 22/10/2023 14:38

CNN have now analysed satellites and lots of video footage from both Hamas and Israel and concluded it was most likely the result of a Hamas rocket breaking up in the air and part landing on the hospital carpark. Other American intelligence has also concluded the same. So it is most likely, no one can be 100 percent definitive, that Hamas attacked the hospital in Gaza.

caringcarer · 22/10/2023 14:41

Bookshipper · 22/10/2023 09:52

Israel have systemically made it impossible - illegal - for Palestinaians in Gaza to be self sufficient. They pour cement into water pipes, the bombed and destroyed the only electrical power plant I Gaza, and fisherman can only fish a very limited and shallow area off the coast.

I cant believe i have to say this, but Israel is not some benign benefactor for the Palestinians. Israel has got 2 million of them caged in a small area (Gaza) and they limit the food and supplies. Those Palestinians have no rights. They cannot leave Gaza or make their lives better. And now Israel are indiscriminately carpet bombing those people, while simultaneously keeping every crossing out of Gaza closed. Whole families are being slaughtered. Hospitals, schools, residential areas, mosques, a church. Its genocide.

Yet throughout Hamas has the Israeli hostages and continues to send rockets from Gaza to attack Israel. More aid money spent on food and less spent on rockets would be a good start.

caringcarer · 22/10/2023 14:44

Worddance · 22/10/2023 10:29

I really think this didn't happen in the way you perceive it did.

Show quote history

Actually I think the statement was pretty accurate. The media were quick to suggest Israel carried out the hospital attack. Now it's clear Hamas did it despite the analysis of satellite evidence a lot of people continue to want to blame Israel.

caringcarer · 22/10/2023 14:46

Heelenahandbasket · 22/10/2023 11:58

the channel 4 news report is ridiculous and as one sided anti Israel as their usual coverage. The recording is faked because of “syntax and accents” according to their “experts”? What on earth- that’s not enough to say a recording is faked- many people living in Gaza (especially terrorists) have lived in other places and don’t speak in the same way. PIJ annd hamas anre both sponsored by Iran. Equally Israel has a great many native speakers of Arabic who could make a convincing fake if they wanted.

Either way, we can see conclusively from the objective evidence including the small size of the crater, the lack of damage to the surrounding buildings and the many videos showing a rocket being fired from Gaza and exploding in the hospital car park that it was not an Israeli missile rather it was clearly a rocket from a terror group in Gaza. it also seems extremely unlikely that 500 people died.

what is shocking is that our mainstream news media reported that Israel bombed a hospital and 500 died on the day so of Hamas (who they misleadingly called the “Palestinian health authorities”). This caused actual violence on the ground and the cancellation of talks on peace. Yet still the bbc hasn’t even tried to provide an accurate report even though their own verification shows all the evidence backs up a Gaznan rocket (and bafflingly the come to the decision it’s “inconclusive”).

A doctor in the hospital said the missile landed in the car park and there were casualties but many fewer than originally reported by Hamas and more were injured than killed according to medic.

SomeCatFromJapan · 22/10/2023 14:47

@caringcarer so did French and Canadian intelligence, reported in the Guardian this morning.

I know that obviously other targets are being bombed and there is an absolutely tragic loss of civilian life. But it was somehow that event that seemed to stir up a shockwave on anger, and that was the one proven to likely be misreported.

EasternStandard · 22/10/2023 15:20

I‘m glad mnhq is deleting posts today

NotTerfNorCis · 22/10/2023 19:10

I do hope you're not suggesting that the Palestinians are on the side of, or should be on the side of, the terrorists who committed that atrocity.

I'm perfectly sure you understood my point.

Hamas are religious fanatics who don't seem to have treated the Palestinians well. However, many of Hamas will be drawn from the Palestinian population. They are people's fathers, brothers, husbands, sons. Their fight is for Palestinian liberation.

Israel on the other hand is denying electricity and water, killing thousands of Palestinians including children , and destroying homes.

Why would the Palestinians who aren't in Hamas risk their lives on behalf of their long term oppressor?

NotTerfNorCis · 22/10/2023 19:13

The media were quick to suggest Israel carried out the hospital attack. Now it's clear Hamas did it

Is it? Channel 4 did an investigation that showed it was likely Israel. In the OP?

ketchup07070 · 22/10/2023 20:30

Teentaxidriver · 22/10/2023 14:18

ah the BBC: that famous bastion of truth. If you rely on the Beeb and Channel 4 for your facts and truth, no wonder you Ketchup are so misguided. The BBC is a conduit for terrorise propaganda.

The BBC is respected all over the world for its international news and follows stringent journalistic guidelines. What news do you trust? Talk TV? GB news? I've news for you, they are definitely propagandists with slovenly journalism who would not get a look in at respected news outlets.

Sofita90 · 23/10/2023 02:37

The problem is this war did not start today and the situation is unfair toeart Palestinians for years. No one talks about the real problem that is Zionism . See the video talking about the situation in west bank. What Hamas did is terrible and have no justification same what Israel does today and how they have handled the situation for years. What this attack to Gaza will resolve ? Except if they kill all Palestinians this situation will create potentially a new generation of fighters. Israel does not care for the hostages is clear as much as Hamas doesn't care for the Palestinian people. By the way to mention here Palestinians are not only Muslim . Israel bombed the greek orthodox church the oldest church is Gaza while there were 400 Christian Palestinians seeking shelter.

Israel’s ultra nationalist settlers who brought the far right to power

Now in Israel, the most far-right government in the country's history is about to take power, at the end of a year marred by soaring levels of deadly violenc...

https://youtu.be/BETNqgBCjwc?si=p1Ehu3ti9bBc4bcm

etmoietmoietmoi · 23/10/2023 03:19

No one talks about the real problem that is Zionism

Are you quite sure about that? @Sofita90

Time2OpenYourEyes · 23/10/2023 07:07

Bookshipper · 22/10/2023 08:24

Israel and the IDF have form when it comes to commiting war crimes and then lying about them, and later being forced to own up to their crimes. I won't list all the instances of this happening, but it's widely available online. This is just a diversion tactic to muddy the waters and get people to argue over, all while the IDF commit even more war crimes.

There's more than enough doubt over the so called Israeli evidence for me to know they did it. Otherwise why would they present so called hamas audio thats been so intwntly doctored and edited? Channel 4 have released a longer video detailing it all for anyone interested.

That, coupled with the heads of the church in Jerusalem who testify that they were informed of Israels intention to bomb the baptist Al Ahli Church everyday for 3 days before the bomb.

As for Israels ally defending their lies. Well Biden himself made a statement that he'd seen proof of the 40 beheaded babies story, only for that story to later be debunked. His statement on it was later deleted. Again, Israels allys and the wider media have form when it comes to taking what Israel claims as gospel truth.

Meanwhile, Israel have now demanded another hospital evacuate, one that's a makeshift home to 12,000 refugees as well as its own sick and injured population.

This.

It has done it before, it is doing it now and it will do it again in future. They have no regard for Palestinian lives regardless of age, sex, religion.

For pps trying to justify the unjustifiable, please just stop. There are so many other mouthpieces working around the clock throwing dust on people's eyes.

Disgusted by those seeking to justify the genocide. All people need to do to know the real truth is go beyond the mass media and try to scratch the surface and things will become clear.

feralunderclass · 23/10/2023 07:14

TurquoiseMermaid · 22/10/2023 08:37

To people who defend terrorists anything other than "Israel is evil and all Jews should be genocided" is regarded as being pro-Israel.

I never ever see anything pro-Israel, I see nothing but Free Palestine everywhere, by people who aren't from here and don't know anything about my country, and want to reduce a very complex political and historical to Evil Jews Killing Babies (ahh, that old blood libel again), and poor helpless brown people.

It's so white saviourist.

People literally will defend a terrorist organisation rather than admit that Israel has the right to exist. (And no, that's not defending the Israeli government, the Israeli government is fascist and right wing and systemically racist, the Israeli government has certainly commuted war crimes - as have many other countries but people only care about Israel.)

Show quote history

You do realize that Black and brown people are against Israeli policy too and are capable of seeing human rights violations in front of their eyes? Look a bit harder on social media. I just saw an Israeli comedian dressed up as a Palestinian woman holding a baby and mocking her pain.

feralunderclass · 23/10/2023 07:25

PurpleChrayne · 22/10/2023 10:23

A fair retaliation would be rape, torture, hostage-taking. That isn't what the IDF is doing.

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Really? Not according to human rights organizations. There are 6000 Palestinian 'hostages' in Israel, held in administrative detention with no access to legal representation, or to even have the right to know what 'crime' they have committed. Approx 1500 are children. There have been many recorded allegations of the IDF and security forces using rape, sexual abuse and torture as punishment tactics and to also illicit a 'confession'.