To not pay their air fare

[rookiemere]

Please if you recognise me don’t out me.

I am an only DC, after a tough year of hard decline from dementia, both DPs are now in a care home close to me. It costs a lot, but thankfully DPs have amassed a lot of savings so I worked out the other day that they can afford it for around 8 years for both of them - they’re 92 and 87 respectively in poor physical health as well, so this should be enough.

The dilemma is this. DF is from another country originally. He is very generous to his nieces my cousins, because their DF died early under unpleasant circumstances. He has offered to pay their fares, 2 of my cousins have declined but one has made it into an annual trip with DPs covering the air fares, bringing along her DH and staying for too long periods at our house. They aren’t ideal house guests so DH put his foot down and said they couldn’t stay for an extended trip again. Accommodation where we live is expensive.

So anyway last night I got an email saying they were thinking of coming over and when would be convenient and what B&B could I recommend. No mention of air fares, so I thought maybe I should say that as the care fees are so expensive DPs can no longer cover the air fare. TBH I don’t think they should even be asking, but I suspect the trip will be unaffordable for them if they have to pay for somewhere to sleep and flights.

I know DF would get some joy from seeing them, and to be fair to my cousin she is very fond of him and he’s almost like a substitute DF in her mind. Technically DPs could afford the flights, but I need to be responsible with their money. I thought I could maybe suggest a contribution of £1k which would help with the fares, but not fully cover them.

DF thinks I shouldn’t mention it and make them ask if they want it. I think that’s coloured by the fact he finds the DH very difficult to get on with and feels they are grabby - as do I to be fair. He says it’s my money, but it’s not at the minute it’s very much still DPs and I am just enacting their wishes.

So AIBU not to offer the money when it’s been paid for in the past ?

Apologies if I respond periodically as going into work shortly.

Although they are CFs, it is his money and his choice I’m inclined to say keep it going whilst he has a chance of recognising them. If they don’t visit him much or stops recognising stop it then. Arrange other grounds to stay for a weekend once they’ve been with you a reasonable time period so book return tickets to match.

I am assuming you have POA? You are now responsible for managing DPs’ money and should they run out, their finances will be scrutinised in depth for deprivation of assets. I’d just tell them this and that you have to keep expenditure to the minimum. Say it’s a legal requirement- it is.

If DF is as important as he thinks, they’ll make it work.

Elderly parents can live much longer than expected and care home fees go up and up. I have personal experience.

Do you have power of attorney for finance and property for your parents? Do they still have their mental capacity?

You need to be careful as large gifts like this (airfares) can be viewed as deprivation of assets. Even though you say there are 8 years left, one or both of your parents may outlive this and will need extra financial help. There is a 7 year rule for gifts which may be voided if your parents live beyond that time, but would your cousin want to see them on an annual basis?

Put it this way - would you take money from your parents for air fare at this stage in their lives? I suspect not. So why should they? Just explain about the care home fees. End of conversation.

Argh conflicted replies already! DF would recognise them and get some joy from their visit.

@Toohoottoo yes my concern is we’re setting a precedent although tbf at 92 with poor health, it’s unlikely to be a long term issue. I believe they see their UK trip as an annual visit and what rankled me last year was my cousin saying she would have to work extra shifts to cover the costs when DPs paid for their air fares and I covered accommodation and most meals.

When DF passes, the gravy train will stop that’s for sure but for now it’s tricky. DM is younger so technically could live longer, both of her DPs died in their 90s but her health is very poor and once it’s down to one person the money stretches out for a lot longer. So yes they can afford it at the minute.

If there is an historical pattern of paying for this flight, it should not be seen as deprivation of assets. I wouldn’t suggest it though and would wait to see if they ask and broach the subject then. A contribution is a reasonable suggestion. The niece is presumably now an independent adult who can save and budget for flights.

@GingerAndTheBiscuits yes DH thinks we shouldn’t mention it and make them ask for it.

I guess to cloud the issue my DPs have been financially generous to us and continue to give DS their DGS an allowance whilst he is at university.

However to counterbalance that my career took a huge hit during the time they refused to acknowledge their growing care needs I and laterally due to a bit of a breakdown DH had to cover the gap, and I was out of work for a period, now working part time in a minimum wage job when previously I was a professional. So I don’t feel too guilty about money flowing down to DS.

No, your parents need their money for their care now. I’d use the excuse as above that with PoA you need to legally account for all expenses. If it were a one off it would be different but it will be annually until he is gone (or that is likely to be the expectation at least). Given they are in care now, this is a good point to reset expectations.
Give them the air bnb details, don’t mention flights and if they ask, say you can’t pay.

OP you haven't answered whether you have POA? Are you responsible for managing your parents' money?

Do you have POA or are your parents still capable of making their own decisions about finances?

If you have POA it probably falls into gifts that you would need to get approved by the court of protection (which can be expensive to get) even if they have gifted in same way previously. Info here https://www.gov.uk/manage-lasting-power-attorney/property-financial-affairs

If they make their own decisions still, then it’s obviously up to them.

If they aren’t capable of making their own decisions and you don’t have POA you would need to apply to court of protection for permission to manage their affairs anyway.

What happens when the money runs out? Would it be a case of selling property you have earmarked for yourself?

I think you’re being a bit unreasonable because you don’t like them. But your father clearly does and it’s his money.

I know in Scotland the principle is that if you have an adult who lacks capacity it’s your responsibility to make decisions that are consistent with with their wishes, if you know what their wishes were and it’s possible to do so. I’d check the position in whichever nation you live in.

On that basis I’d continue paying for flights because you know the parents did so for many years. It’s not deprivation of assets if you can show a pattern consistent with their wishes. It would fall under the same principle that continues to pay your DC an allowance. I think you’d find it hard to argue that funds to your DC was ok but funds to another relative given over a period of time for a particular purpose isn’t.

The 7 year rule relates to inheritance tax and is nothing to do with local authority care home funding and deprivation of assets. If the parents run down their savings and need contributions from the LA a financial assessment will be carried out and they will go back over years where the parents would have knowledge that they would need residential care. So they will be scrutinising expenditure certainly for all the years they have been in care irrespective of how long that has been. It is likely they will go back to the dates they received diagnoses of dementia as at that point they would have become aware there was a very high chance of them needing residential care.

They need their money for care so I don’t think you can just spend it on air fare?! Do you want them to come over and visit your dad? How important are they to him? If it’s really important then yes do it. If he wouldn’t recognise them then explain he doesn’t have the funds for airfare right now, but you’re welcome to stay at mine again to make it cheaper.

If DF has always paid and the cousin thinks of him almost as a father and they don't have much money I would pay. It may be the last time they get to see each other. It is still his money and he has always paid because he wants to see them

Absolutely not.
They have had years of trips and your father doesn't like her husband.

You are their daughter so of course they will be generous.

I think you need to be sensible, not offer anything and tell them that things have changed.

Your father would love to see them but they need to pay for themselves.

This sounds like its been a free jolly for years.

Payments to your son and payments to your cousin need to be treated the same. Either they're both OK or neither of them are OK.

Given that you seem fine to dip your hand into your DPs money for your son, you should fully fund your cousins annual trip as your DF always did when he was able to make the decision/payments himself.

If you are limiting/stopping payments to your cousin, your should also limit/stop payments to your DS.

You seem to be making decisions in your own best interests, rather than "what dad would want". If you have POA, this is not allowed.

I would pay, its clearly what your DF wants - and he is extremely unlikely to live another 8 years, so paying for these flights realistically going to impact his ability to pay for his care.

Are you thinking about your inheritance?

I think it would be very mean of you to deny your DF something that would bring him joy in the last years of his life.

If you have POA it’s an easy no if not I think you have to go with what your father wants.

I think that’s a typo and it’s OP’s husband that doesn’t like the cousin’s husband.
OP’s husband also says it’s OP’s money, so I think his motives are clear.

If you have POA, funds need to be used in your parents best interests. TBH the air fare sounds like it would be because it would bring DF joy. Your son’s allowance less so… there’s something rather unsavoury about scrimping on things which will bring your father pleasure but not on things which benefit your son.

@TheresMillionsOfGeoffreys if both dp have dementia and poor physical health and from context that OP is fully responsible for care I’d expect she must have financial power of attorney

You sound lovely Op. What a tough situation and so much responsibility.

Having read loads of threads on MN over the years, it’s ALWAYS best to avoid playing games. Don’t make them ask for the fare. Do make the new constraints clear.

If you are managing your df bank account, I would be really honest and say:

“I have a bit of a dilemma. I know dad is still capable of enjoying a visit from you at the moment and I know in the past he’s been able to help you out with costs. At the same time DPs savings need to be carefully planned so that they can afford the specialist (ie expensive!) care they need for as long as they need it. It is exhausting and stressful trying to help dp with these decisions. I think they can afford to make a contribution to your flights this year, so if you can find enough money to pay for your accommodation and food, then I think dad can afford to send you up to £1000 to help with flight costs. I can send you some suggestions of places to stay if that helps. If you’re able to come, you should spend as much time as possible with dp because at the moment it still helps dad to see familiar faces. Sadly I can’t be sure what will happen next year so we are busy making the most of the time we have got now.”

Also - make sure you have a plan to set money aside to help pay flights if they wish to visit for the funeral(s). Sorry to be blunt about that but the time they WILL need financial help is when they suddenly need to book a last minute flight for a funeral - never cheap. Once your dp dies, check what happens to bank account - it may be frozen and as executor you can apply for money for funerary costs but I’m not sure if that extends to flying family members over to the Uk. Worth checking.

I’d reply and say, ‘It would be lovely to see you, but we can no longer cover the costs of flights and accommodation as the funds are required for their care and medical expenses’.

It sounds as if fares will be expensive if £1K won't cover them. The question is - realistically how much pleasure would your father get out of their visit, and is it proportionate to the cost? He presumably saw them around a year ago. He has dementia. Is he even going to remember any visit from them?

If your DF still has capacity it is his choice.

If he doesn't and you have POA you could justify the expenditure/gift, as this is something he has always done and maintaining the family relationship is on his interests. Equally you could say no on the basis that your parents' situation has now changed - could contact be facilitated instead by a Zoom call on an ipad?