To not pay their air fare

[rookiemere]

Please if you recognise me don’t out me.

I am an only DC, after a tough year of hard decline from dementia, both DPs are now in a care home close to me. It costs a lot, but thankfully DPs have amassed a lot of savings so I worked out the other day that they can afford it for around 8 years for both of them - they’re 92 and 87 respectively in poor physical health as well, so this should be enough.

The dilemma is this. DF is from another country originally. He is very generous to his nieces my cousins, because their DF died early under unpleasant circumstances. He has offered to pay their fares, 2 of my cousins have declined but one has made it into an annual trip with DPs covering the air fares, bringing along her DH and staying for too long periods at our house. They aren’t ideal house guests so DH put his foot down and said they couldn’t stay for an extended trip again. Accommodation where we live is expensive.

So anyway last night I got an email saying they were thinking of coming over and when would be convenient and what B&B could I recommend. No mention of air fares, so I thought maybe I should say that as the care fees are so expensive DPs can no longer cover the air fare. TBH I don’t think they should even be asking, but I suspect the trip will be unaffordable for them if they have to pay for somewhere to sleep and flights.

I know DF would get some joy from seeing them, and to be fair to my cousin she is very fond of him and he’s almost like a substitute DF in her mind. Technically DPs could afford the flights, but I need to be responsible with their money. I thought I could maybe suggest a contribution of £1k which would help with the fares, but not fully cover them.

DF thinks I shouldn’t mention it and make them ask if they want it. I think that’s coloured by the fact he finds the DH very difficult to get on with and feels they are grabby - as do I to be fair. He says it’s my money, but it’s not at the minute it’s very much still DPs and I am just enacting their wishes.

So AIBU not to offer the money when it’s been paid for in the past ?

Apologies if I respond periodically as going into work shortly.

A bit of a gamble to assume both will have passed on within 8 years, they can surprise you. Also wouldn’t fancy feeling stressed about my parents living longer than expected when that should be a good thing!

It’s not always a good thing. There was a huge element of relief when my mother died. I wouldn’t wish her last months on my worst enemy.

Granted it’s different in that situation, but OP has said her DF is pretty happy at the moment. Either way, stressing about them surviving after their savings run out purely because of the money is not a position I would like to be in.

@Freddiefisher I agree with a lot of what you say in terms of preserving the funds for care. As POA I didn't give out any gifts.

But a solicitor is unlikely to go through the person's historical spending as part of executing their estate. I was joint executor with my mother's solicitor and he was not interested in what she spent when she was alive, he was dealing with what was left in her estate.

As you say, the problem will occur if the money runs out and Social Services get involved. 8 years of funds sounds plenty but care costs can increase considerably, and the relatives may live a lot longer than you expect. One resident at my mother's care home lived to be 100, and another was 103 and had outlived all her relatives.

You said your cousin said previously she had to work overtime to pay for the last trip, even though they stayed free of charge with you and didn’t contribute to food. Do you think your cousin will expect you to pay for or contribute towards the B&B? Do you think it might be clearer to say you are willing/able to contribute £1200 towards the trip as opposed to £1200 towards the flights?

I honestly don’t think the money will run out. There is enough for 8 years x 2. DMs DPs lived well into their 90s, but DM is severely physically incapacitated as well as the dementia so for her sake I hope she finds peace rather than enduring many more years. But yes as part of this I am conscious she may well live longer than DF and whilst he’s happy to pay for his niece to fly, the money should perhaps be preserved for her - but enough of you have made the argument that it’s a relatively small amount.

DS funding will end in June 2027 when he finishes Uni - many years before the money runs out. I must admit I hadn’t thought of IHT implications it’s all been a bit of a blur getting them into the care home.

We visit regularly- my DF isn’t sitting alone pining in a corner, he and DM get at least 2 visits a week from DH or myself. I hadn’t thought of getting cousins to FaceTime, to be honest I am not sure how much Dad could appreciate and it would be a bit of a logistical nightmare for me due to the time difference, often DPs are asleep or DF out on a trip when we visit.

@rookiemere We did direct cremations for both my parents, at their request, but it happened to be in line with our wishes also. Separately, we had a small, informal gathering for each with their remaining friends and family as a life celebration and these were lovely events.

@CluelessAboutBiologythats a really good point I don’t think they would expect their accommodation to be covered but you never know. TBH I would put up with them for the visit, but DH is quite adamant they can’t stay ( with good reason- he’s normally very easy going about visitors).

@rookiemere I agree that although FaceTime is great it can be hard in a care home. DM (even in her 90s) was used to us using WhatsApp on video when in her own home. It was the way she could keep in touch with her grandchildren and great grandchildren. She lives in UK, we don’t. We have introduced carer facilitation of the phone (the older generation press too hard in my experience). In the care home we have not worked out how they can keep the phone charged. Sounds easy but it isn’t.

If she had never used the phone in her 80s I think it would be harder now. Maybe you could try it out within the family. Your DS could try calling while you are there. If it works, suggest to your cousin that she calls. Give her a couple of dates that could work for you within time frames that potentially could work in her time zone. Then invite her to FaceTime. If it were my uncle I would work round it

As you have POA it would be a hard no from me.

You sound very fair OP.
People arguing about your dad’s money for you son.. that’s his grandson, his direct descendant. Totally different to a niece and husband

There’s a load of crap on this thread. FFS

There’s no hierarchy for misappropriation of funds. It’s wrong whoever the recipient is.

Yes but she’s also trying to make sure that they have enough money to pay for their care and if she pays for their airfare all the time that will be a waste of money that could be used for more important things, and if the money runs out and council have to step in to pay for their care are going to wonder why money was wasted paying for someone else’s airfare when it should have gone towards their care. Op has decided to offer them £1200 towards their flights which is a fair offer.

@Ilovemyfamboth DF and DM have “simple “ mobile phone for want of a better term. I tried to show DF how to zoom during covid by giving him an old ipad but sadly he couldn’t come to terms with the technology. If they were to do a Facetime I would need to coordinate it and bring my phone or ipad, which I suppose I could try to organise.

It’s not any kind of gamble. Either they will live longer or they wont. It’s highly unlikely but not impossible. But there will be a house to sell once the savings have run out. And a council is not going to make an argument that personal funds cannot be spent on bringing a relative over to see them. They’re just not. And even if they were 1k is less than a week’s rent for a care home.

This whole subject is ridiculous.

On the inheritance front, there is a small bequest to each of my cousins including two on DMs side who will not inherit from a DF.

Depending on the finances when my DPs do pass, I had hoped to increase the amounts given in line with inflation, but neither DP is in a position to be changing wills now and as I don’t know how much they will need in total for their care, it’s easier to keep it as they wanted which was only a few years ago.

Ok ..so two of her DC were owed money from dm
When I became POA , solicitors contacted me lots about finances and selling the house ,so we had lots of conversations..and I was 100% told I can not give them the money out of her estate..they have to wait untill she has died and probate sorted out ..
She specifically said that as POA I cannot go handing out her money..or words to that effect..can't remember exact wording,but that was the jist of it .
And council took a lot of interest in asking where everything went
So to move in to her rest home I had to do a transfer of £6000 for the first month,and the council even went back 5 years to check where that £6000 went , because it looked different from the monthly standing order to the home .
So that's all I know
But feel free to explain how you know differently

Can you point out where the OP says there is a property to sell as well? I must have missed that. So why the stress over only having eight years of fees in savings?

Oh, and the council definitely do care about cash being spent in this way and they will definitely pursue any avenue to avoid contributing to fees.

yes I would like to inherit the house so I can pass it or the funds on to DS. That’s what DPs would have wanted as well.

I originally wrote “potentially” as we don’t know if there’s property as well.

Either way this is a ludicrous conversation.

The purpose of the UK's deprivation of assets rule is to stop people from intentionally getting rid of wealth to avoid care home fees.

As this couple has explicitly secured 8 years of self-funding capital, they clearly lack the intent to avoid paying. In any case their care needs are not an immediate prospect.

LA assess transactions using 2 primary factors:

Forseeabilty and timing: They’ve got funds to last 8 years. As they don’t need state support now sor soon the timing indicates they’re not trying to cheat the system.

Reasonable motivation - 1k to maintain family bonds and well-being is a normal life expense, not an artificial attempt to ditch capital.

Ultimately, councils expect individuals to live their lives & spend money reasonably. A flight for family to visit a couple who are funding their own care would be considered entirely reasonable.

"DH thinks we should give them nothing but is happy for us to benefit, but he also has done so much for them including getting their house ready to rent in super fast time to help with the care home fees."

OK fair enough didn’t see that. I therefore cannot fathom why OP is not factoring in the house value in the amount available for care home fees. The LA will certainly expect that to be sold and the proceeds used up until they reach the lower savings limit, if the rent received is not covering the fees. They won’t contribute a penny until that is done, even before they get into scrutinising expenditure.

Because it’s my job

Presumably because they’ve got more than enough for the moment so they don’t need to sell immediately.

Don’t know why you’re so obsessed with the LA, they’re highly unlikely to be involved with this couple at all.