To not pay their air fare

[rookiemere]

Please if you recognise me don’t out me.

I am an only DC, after a tough year of hard decline from dementia, both DPs are now in a care home close to me. It costs a lot, but thankfully DPs have amassed a lot of savings so I worked out the other day that they can afford it for around 8 years for both of them - they’re 92 and 87 respectively in poor physical health as well, so this should be enough.

The dilemma is this. DF is from another country originally. He is very generous to his nieces my cousins, because their DF died early under unpleasant circumstances. He has offered to pay their fares, 2 of my cousins have declined but one has made it into an annual trip with DPs covering the air fares, bringing along her DH and staying for too long periods at our house. They aren’t ideal house guests so DH put his foot down and said they couldn’t stay for an extended trip again. Accommodation where we live is expensive.

So anyway last night I got an email saying they were thinking of coming over and when would be convenient and what B&B could I recommend. No mention of air fares, so I thought maybe I should say that as the care fees are so expensive DPs can no longer cover the air fare. TBH I don’t think they should even be asking, but I suspect the trip will be unaffordable for them if they have to pay for somewhere to sleep and flights.

I know DF would get some joy from seeing them, and to be fair to my cousin she is very fond of him and he’s almost like a substitute DF in her mind. Technically DPs could afford the flights, but I need to be responsible with their money. I thought I could maybe suggest a contribution of £1k which would help with the fares, but not fully cover them.

DF thinks I shouldn’t mention it and make them ask if they want it. I think that’s coloured by the fact he finds the DH very difficult to get on with and feels they are grabby - as do I to be fair. He says it’s my money, but it’s not at the minute it’s very much still DPs and I am just enacting their wishes.

So AIBU not to offer the money when it’s been paid for in the past ?

Apologies if I respond periodically as going into work shortly.

Section 4 of the Mental Capacity Act defines best interests- which includes consideration of past actions but they are not definitive.

By the sound of it DF has capacity so you must not tell him what to do, though you can advise him.

In that case, send them the money now for the current cost of the fares and send them a message saying "book quickly - we can't afford to send any more if you delay so long that prices go up"

As pp said - it's DF's money and he would get genuine joy from their visit.

Yanbu at all to refuse to have them stay at yours, and ywnbu to not pay once DF is too far gone to be aware of their visit so this may well be the last time.

I think it is unreasonable not to pay for Or contribute to their flights because you don’t like them, under the excuse of POA. If your DF could consent he clearly would be paying for that so this actually going against his wishes and abusing your POA, that’s my opinion

Wait till they ask you and then say that as you now have legal responsibilities for their finances, you can’t pay their air fare, as legally, you can’t give away their money. And care homes are expensive and their money needs to pay for their care.

You are so very NOT unreasonable.

I think that if this is an expense that he has always paid, then it will be seen that as far as POA goes, it is what is in line with normal expenditure and gifts.

Especially as you are allowing him to gift an allowance to your son, so continuing a financial gift that was set up and ongoing before he became ill.

It only becomes an issue when the money is getting tight which, at the moment, it is not. Then it could be seen as putting him into financial difficulties.

My FIL paid a monthly amount to his daughter which we continued to pay, even though it was running down his savings and he had only a few pounds a week for his own use - the fallout would have been dreadful if we had cut her off, and he would have wanted his money to go to her. He died before it became a real issue but there was nothing left as inheritance as she had had it over the years. It was not seen as anything dubious as was a longstanding arrangement.

The accommodation side is a different matter - that was down to behaviour not finances, and your cousin only has herself to blame for that.

However what I would do is to say 'this is how much flights are currently - if you book now at this price we will cover it. If you dont purchase while it is cheap, this is still only the maximum we will pay, as waiting will cost you more, and you will have the choice to buy now and get the full amount covered, or wait and cover the shortfall yourselves"

That way you are seen to be protecting your fathers finances - willy nilly extra costs because someones fucking about shouldnt be to his detriment. Allowing a payment that is many years in tradition will be OK. However when they are here it may be good for them to look at the reality of the situation and see that potentially future visits may not be able to be had, or less frequent. And ultimately you believe your father will benefit from seeing them, which is what you are managing his money for - his benefit.

With regards to their money, you do need to be careful how you spend it as things can be seen as depreciating assests. I doubt the airfare would fall into that and I'm not up on all the details. But my dads cousin is going through this with her mum and she said she's been told that she can only be spending so much a month for things my great aunt needs. We have told her to go to citizens advice and it didnt seem right. But could be worth looking into before offering them money.

thanks for this, I was doubting myself and went away to check and you are quite right. But worth noting that best interests is defined quite broadly and does factor in heavily what he would have wished, and the joy from the visit as long as expenditure is proportional to that.

This

He forgets to wash, dress and toilet. When I visit I always start with Hello Dad just in case he has forgotten who I am. When they were still at home DH and I had to do everything. A consultant has said he hasn’t got capacity so I am unsure why you think he still has it ?
Sorry if this is pointed am genuinely curious.

Based on this thread I am going to offer the current price of the flights which is around £1200.

I agree it’s wrong to take money for DS and refuse something DF funded before.

I do think they are egregious entitled CFs though and won’t offer them any accommodation.

But she's quite happy to dip her hand in her parents money to give money to her son...

The gift to her son and the airfare need to be treated the same. Either they both continue to be paid, or neither continue to be paid.

OP deciding to priorise the gift that benefits her/her son over the gift that brings her father joy would be an abuse of the POA.

File that comment under the MN usual of ‘my input is more important than actually reading the thread - even the additional posts from the OP’. Drives me up the wall!

I think you’ve made the right choice for this year for sure - if he did have capacity he would have paid, and from what you’ve written this amount won’t realistically affect their care.

Are they people you will be able to discuss this with when they are over to explain that the money is now tied up in long term care which means this is basically the last funded time they can fly over?

Would you be comfortable telling your father that now that you have control of their finances you have decided it is not a good use to fund his family visits and that if they cannot come up with the funds themselves he will not see them again?

Would you feel comfortable saying this if your father didn’t have dementia and understood what you were saying?

It feels like your personal dislike is what is driving your decision. Not concern for your parents.

Her H is fixated on coming here repeatedly for reasons completely unrelated to my DF

In that case, why would you contribute to both airfares rather than just hers?

If you want to chip in I'd personally send the £500 or so which you said would cover the cost of the current fare, and if it's left until they've gone up then it's their issue to sort

Of course it's possible neither will then come at all, but at least you'd have tried

We were in a similar postion 6 years ago when my husband's aunt (by marriage)had to go into a care home as she has dementia. Her sister, brother, neices and nephews only came to see her at Christmas to get a cheque, or would phone and remind her it was their birthday! She went into the home in February and the sister & brother turned up at Xmas and were most annoyed that she didn't have a cheque book to give them their money. They phoned DH he is her POA who in no uncertain terms told them the gravy train had blown up, he needed every penny of what was left to keep her as we didn't know how long she would be living there. She is still there 6 years later and fees are now more tham twice what they were.

But why are people saying "this is the last time"?

He would have paid every year if he had the capacity to do so.

The finances sounds healthy and not imminently running out of funds

OP is continuing to gift money to her son on her parent's behalf.

The trip should continue to be funded for as long as the finances allow gifts (to anyone) to be given because that is what her father would have done.

I wouldn't wait for them to ask because if they assume that you will fund them and are disappointed when flights are more expensive then I think that'll cause bad feeling. I would fund flights for a last time to the tune of the current price, but tell them the amount. I would also let them know that it is the last time. Realistically, it doesn't sound like your DF will have capacity to recognise her for much longer, so it's only worthwhile this year.

I think it's fine to accept the allowance for your DS. My grandad continued to pay a similar thing to all the grandchildren after he lost capacity because he had been doing so for several years already so there was a clear pattern.

I would pay this last time and then no more. Make it clear that after this trip, your DP's funds are for their care. It is a good time to set future expectations @rookiemere
Oh and don't compare what they do for you and yours. You are their child for goodness sake. As fond as he is of the neice, she is a neice. It sounds like you and your family have done a lot for your parents and sacrificed plenty. Do not feel guilty about your DS recieving money, it doesn't compare.

Not had time to RTFT, but you could look into Immediate Care Needs Annuity to fund their care fees with less risk of running out later.

You may be in breach of PoA rules, due to DF's lack of capacity and their need for care fees. This is a change in their past circumstances.

You also have IHT to consider, as you could be in breach of gifting allowances depending on their income remaining after care fees.

This would be abuse of the POA.

If you have poa you are not supposed to be giving gifts on their behalf.
Tell them that.

This is not true. She can continue to give gifts in line with what he previously did.

Well he can pay himself, like everyone else who visits somewhere

Not being funny if they thought anything about your father they should be willing to pay their own air fares !!
Also my dad's partner is in a care home it's over 7,000 a month and it's just recently increased by another 500 pounds so make sure that's factored into your figures as well !.
It's a 2 way street relationships and if your dad have been funding this all the time I'd say it's their turn now x