To not pay their air fare

[rookiemere]

Please if you recognise me don’t out me.

I am an only DC, after a tough year of hard decline from dementia, both DPs are now in a care home close to me. It costs a lot, but thankfully DPs have amassed a lot of savings so I worked out the other day that they can afford it for around 8 years for both of them - they’re 92 and 87 respectively in poor physical health as well, so this should be enough.

The dilemma is this. DF is from another country originally. He is very generous to his nieces my cousins, because their DF died early under unpleasant circumstances. He has offered to pay their fares, 2 of my cousins have declined but one has made it into an annual trip with DPs covering the air fares, bringing along her DH and staying for too long periods at our house. They aren’t ideal house guests so DH put his foot down and said they couldn’t stay for an extended trip again. Accommodation where we live is expensive.

So anyway last night I got an email saying they were thinking of coming over and when would be convenient and what B&B could I recommend. No mention of air fares, so I thought maybe I should say that as the care fees are so expensive DPs can no longer cover the air fare. TBH I don’t think they should even be asking, but I suspect the trip will be unaffordable for them if they have to pay for somewhere to sleep and flights.

I know DF would get some joy from seeing them, and to be fair to my cousin she is very fond of him and he’s almost like a substitute DF in her mind. Technically DPs could afford the flights, but I need to be responsible with their money. I thought I could maybe suggest a contribution of £1k which would help with the fares, but not fully cover them.

DF thinks I shouldn’t mention it and make them ask if they want it. I think that’s coloured by the fact he finds the DH very difficult to get on with and feels they are grabby - as do I to be fair. He says it’s my money, but it’s not at the minute it’s very much still DPs and I am just enacting their wishes.

So AIBU not to offer the money when it’s been paid for in the past ?

Apologies if I respond periodically as going into work shortly.

If it's something your father has always done and you think he would take joy from seeing them, then I would absolutely pay on this occasion.

Its unlikely to be seen as deprivation of assets if theres a historic pattern of him paying and it sounds based on you saying there's enough funds to cover years worth of care for both parents, there must be hundreds of thousands? I highly doubt the LA are going to come down on hard or even notice £1000 missing from what sounds like half a million and I think any justification on that part is just an excuse not to pay. And as already been said, if you are concerned about it, that justification would equally to funding your son.

That being said, I would be tempted to set out now that the circumstances have changed and your parents money now needs to be spent on care fees. I would therefore ask them to book flights asap for this year before prices increase and also make them aware that future years may be difficult to fund. I think that's a reasonable compromise.

Think you need to get legal advice regarding this as you don't want to get landed with a bill later down the line regarding misappropriation of assets. That way you're covered all round and have a genuine need to refuse paying for your cousins free trips.

Exactly this. You need the money for care home fees, no way should it be going on flights, that is very dodgy.

You are allowed to give £3K (in the UK) to a relative annually, please check the rules if there’s a standing order to your ds.

You've no obligation to offer any nights of accommodation with you. I'd not offer that at all.

It sounds like the trip would be a nice thing for your DF. I don't know the ins and outs of POA guidelines but if it's acceptable then I would, as a last one.

I think it's really harsh of you to not contribute when your DF has chosen to pay for them every other year and you clearly state it would bring him joy to see him. Especially when you are still giving regular amounts to your children.

If he’s 92, he’s unlikely to last 8 years. Let him see his family.

I know you'll hate the answer but if your DP would want them to visit and a precedent has been established thenni think your dad's choice qould be covering airfare and accommodation if you can't take them in.

Shitty, but POA means making the choice your family would make, even if you think its a bad one.

If they run out of care money at those ages and stages of illness then its unlikely they will be moved so better to spend the money as your parents would have and let them have the joy of it.

Having said that, id be gritting my teeth over it.

Not sure i agree with this - her aging parents have dementia and are vulnerable. Offers to fund trips proceeding their health and mental decline should be considered rescinded. If @rookiemere has a living POA, I’m afraid I wold be contacting that cousin to update and state that funding for trips will no longer be available as all monies must now be directed into parent’s long term care.

If they have a problem with it, then they really are CFs.

I think it's OK to say no to paying for the air fare, your parents need that money for care now, and you shouldn't have to accommodate people in your home who disrupt your life. I'd maybe make them aware they can't stay with you which I presume they know as they asked about b and b . They could google for this info by the way instead of asking for recommendations.

I haven’t RTFT but I would pay this time, and see if your father recognises them and gets pleasure from the visit. If there’s enough money for eight years’ of care fees x 2 the cost, even if £4k including accommodation, is going to equate to less than 2 weeks’ care. Eight years hence I cannot see that anyone is going to home in on this visit and accuse you of deprivation of assets.

I've seen your replies but I too would offer a booked flight and accommodation (if you wanted) for just her. DF would get joy from seeing her and I would explain this is the last time (if at all) he will see her and possibly recognise her. Having extra people visiting etc. isn't in the best interests of your DPs anymore or you with them both being in care. But you are respecting your DFs wants too that he loves and cares for this niece and she him.
If she understands she likely won't see him again she can accept the singular flight and accommodation, or DF covers just the flight and they pay for both accommodation and her DHs flights too.
Basically the funds don't stretch to both of them, you do not have to tell her anymore than that.

But I wouldn’t be hosting the disruptive couple!

If they can afford it at the minute and it was something DF had clearly expressed he wanted when he had capacity , I would honour that this year. But review on a year to year basis if care needs exceed finances

I think you should carry on your father's wishes while he is able to recognise her and get enjoyment from her visit and this may be the last time he is able to do so. So offer to pay at least for the flight for her this year, the husband should pay for his own.

If the money is invested and you are renting out their home it should take care of increases in care home fees. Claim disability benefits if your parents would qualify for them.

I think you’re being a bit mean.
it’s your parents’ money; they’ve always paid until now; and their visit would bring your DF joy.
pay for the flights. And not just a contribution unless that’s what your DF would typically do.
it’s not your money.

I don't think you're being unreasonable. Your parents' money now needs to be prioritised for their care, and that's a very different situation from when they were living independently. Care costs can be unpredictable, and eight years is only an estimate, so I'd be cautious about making ongoing gifts. If your cousin genuinely wants to see your dad, I'd expect her to understand that circumstances have changed. I probably wouldn't offer to pay before they've even asked. If they do raise it, you can simply explain that your parents' finances are now being managed with their long-term care in mind. If you still wanted to help, a smaller contribution would be a kind gesture rather than an expectation, but I don't think you should feel obliged to fund the whole trip just because it's happened in the past.

I have POA DF has been determined not to have capacity and DM can’t really communicate so effectively I have been managing their bank accounts for the past year.

So it is up to you to manage the money in their best interests. It is a huge responsibility isn't it, with a lot of hard decisions to make. The priority is paying for care. Gifts which have previously been set up can continue but the flights and the allowance are pretty big gifts.

Of course if your parents die within the next few years it won't 'matter', noone will know about it. It's only if SS step in and you have to justify the gifts.

It's always impossible to predict the future with care needs, you don't know how long someone will live, or how much care costs will increase.

My mother had money for 8 years of self-funding and I was sure she would not outlive her funds. But she did, and needed 18 months of SS funding. I did not give out any gifts, both because I was paranoid about deprivation of assets, and also wanted to do all I could to avoid her being dependant on SS.

Does your DF have capacity? If he does, he can do whatever he likes with his money, even if you think it unwise. If he doesn't and you have POA, you need to be able to demonstrate that spending this money is in DF's best interests.

I think this needs to be fact checked as it's a really important point. My understanding is that in England, as in Scotland as @Jellycatspyjamas said, your role with POA is explicitly not to spend the money in the person's best interests, but as they themselves would have chosen to do before they lost capacity. If you think your father would have chosen to pay for the flights, the default starting position should be paying for the flights. If you decide not to, the justification would be that if he had capacity to understand the risks around deprivation of assets, full capacity him would decide not to pay for these flights even as a one off this year. With quite a lot still in the bank and regarding a relationship he values, I think that might be a bit of a push.

In practice I think the compromise position if offering a set amount lower amount and perhaps saying this is the last time would be ok. But if he would still get joy from seeing them, then depriving him of that while he has the money to make it happen is arguably quite thorny too. In very old age in a care home there is nothing as valuable as family visits.

Either you respect your DFs wishes and keep paying for things he would have paid for, or you conserve money for care fees. You shouldn't have one rule for his DN and one rule for your DC. Not paying for the flights to save money while still using your DFs money to fund your DCs uni doesn't sit right with me at all.

If the parent whose money it is has all their faculties, it's entirely up to them.

If they do not, and you have POA, then you can't do it. Your role is to use their money in their best interests, which may not always be what they themselves would have chosen to do.

I wouldn't be using funds from parents who are in a care home for air fares for others - even if that would give them joy. I know from experience how costs in care home can mount up. Especially if the care level increases as more nursing is needed over time. If DH or someone wants to buy the air fare then I wouldn't have an issue, but I'd save parents funds for their actual care. You never know what they will need..

She's said that he's been determined not to have capacity and that she has POA.

I think I'd do this year what your Dad did in the past, tho I definitely wouldn't have them stay in your house. I don't think I'd tell them till after they're gone home from visit that it maybe the last one, in case, however unlikely, if as you seem to say your father is still quite lucid, that they upset him by telling him you're stopping them visiting again etc.

I do think tho as previous posters have said you may need legal advice to protect yourself, especially as you are happy to keep their money going to your DS.

Surely in that event you can say you can't use DF's funds for his fare? It's not as if DF will get any pleasure from seeing your cousin's husband.