Rude Dd answering back

[Constantheadachesgoaway]

Please does anyone have any advice

Dd is 8, very bright, funny, kind, but can change sometimes when frustrated/angry and shouts loudly, answers back and can say horrible things like calling us idiots etc. I get so cross back at her, but it makes things worse. When she’s calmed she often apologies and at that point i’m able to talk to her about how she can’t talk to us like that and so on. She listens, but then it happens again. She’s no trouble at school, hard working, lots of friends, doing really well with all her work, never in trouble.
Is this normal? What do I do?
I would have never dreamed of speaking to my parents or answering back the way she does
Feel like i’m failing as a parent

It's not as easy to deal with as a lot of commenters are making out. I'm with you tbh with not knowing how to handle it- and mine is only 4!! But she is so rude, shouts at us, calls us stupid etc- like what you described.

She is suspected ADHD which probably contributes.

The best thing that works for us is to stay calm (easier said than done) but shouting back never works. Take her away from the situation.
Don't shame her, don't make her feel less. Retain an understanding that they are just children who are struggling with emotions and how to cope with them. Something that even many adults struggle with!!

I think if you remain on her side, she will move on from this phase and come back to you.

Yes completely agree. Why the frustration and remove screens to free up her mind, not as punishment.

@Constantheadachesgoaway hormones!!

My DD (10) is like this but we are making progress.

Firstly, don't pick up the rope. She wants a battle. Don't give her it. Speak calmly and explain that it is unkind and not acceptable to speak to someone like that.

Secondly, when she is in apology mode and calm then tell her what the future consequences will be. My DD gets 24 hours with no screens at all if she tells me or her brothers to shut up or is rude.

Remember... dont pick up the rope! Tell her once calmly then ignore.

Have you spoken to her about how she’s feeling ? Maybe she’s struggling. A therapist for her might be in order. She may not be able to verbalise how she’s feeling - she is 8. I think she needs some help with communication.

I'm not sure anyone is saying it's easy.

I would look at ADHD see if it fits - as it turns out my DC have that - which explains a lot and see if any statergies there could help -transition were a trigger for one and managed by countdowns.

This thread is strange though draconian almost sadistic suggetions for punishment vs endless excuses about potential causes.

I mean yes ID any triggers - and try and mitiagte and manage but sometime it's a no that can't or shouldn't change and that's it - that a life lesson in itself.

Introduce warning phrases or sounds that indicate a line has been crossed and she need to reign in back and that is warning she needs to do so- that worked well with my kids but may take time to get the here as it's gone on a while.

Clam down time- get her to room - if not possible remove self and other kids and things liek TV rmeotes. DS used to liek to go out to garden or could be infleunced there by opening door and suggesting it. That space also give you a chance to calm down and find the quite firm voice.

When she is calm - resist the tempation to smooth everything over - now is the time for parental dissapointment in the behavior to be conveyed and time for reflection by child. Hoepfully then comes an actual meant apology. If parental disappointment not enough and it's happened again is short order then think about other pusihments.

Screens were limited and came as part of routine - after school never beofre and after support work was done and any activties. If they argued it went off and they were sent to their rooms. They learnt not to argue but to negotiate what to watch. There was also lots of walking and activity and outside time which all helped.

Ulitmately though they had to learn what wasn't acceptable behavior and rudeness to me - that was a line they learnt not to cross - and it takes time to get there and you will get it wrong and make mistakes but in end holding those behavioral lines every time does pay off.

Long post incoming:

I'm not big of punishments or consequences (unless they are natural consequences), especially when the foundation of parenting isn't ideal – and those foundational blocks can be really easy to slide because kids are ever-changing and sometimes it isn't. until problems occur that parents recognise that approaches need to be different.

Imagine parenting tools like a pyramid. The best and largest foundations to lay with your daughter are quality 1:1 time, and praise. In your 1:1 time, ensure that it happens every single day – whether that's for 15 minutes or an hour – ensure that she knows it will happen every day and ensure that what you do in that time is her choice. Whatever it is, it's HER choice (barring anything actually unrealistic of course.

With praise, heap it on all day – it will seem completely OTT and unnatural, but persevere. You want to praise every desirable behaviour you see, as soon as you see it – whether that's asking for something nicely, doing her homework digitally, tidying up, taking her plate and cup to the sink, getting ready for school, absolutely anything. Praise her and be specific in why you are praising her. She needs to know you think she is a good kid, and, more importantly, SHE needs to feel like a good kid.

Next is incentives – people often dismiss this as they think it's more appropriate for very young children, but it's actually very effective in children all the way up to 10. It's just a bit more involved with older kids. Let her choose something to collect when she displays a desirable behaviour (eg, stickers), and at first choose only one thing to work on. For her, that's going to be speaking politely at the times that she usually doesn't

(As an aide, it it useful to keep a diary for a week of when her shouting/rude behaviour is triggered to try to detect a pattern – is it transitions? Meal times? After school? Before bed?).

Whenever it occurs, every time that she gets through one of these trigger points without shouting/being rude, she gets a sticker. Write a list together of what her stickers can earn her. 5 stickers may be a bag of chocolate buttons, 6 stickers may be choosing a family movie, 7 stickers might be staying up 30 minutes late – make the list her choice, her 'shopping' list can be both tangible and intangible things to earn. Heap on the praise when she gets a sticker, let her know what it's for, and heap on the praise again when she has collected enough to spend it on something of her choice.

Younger children benefit from an incentive prize every day. Older children may begin this way, but then see the value in persisting in desirable behaviour to save ip their stickers. I have 8yr old twins – one collects stickers and the other collects pebbles. One them had the diligence to save up a whopping 30 pebbles to buy a new football last weekend!

Incentives stickers/pebbles should be frequently changed up – after a few weeks, change what the 'earning behaviour' as then highly praise instead for the old 'earning behaviour'. Change the shopping list frequently, allow her to add things, make it more difficult (but not too difficult) to earn big wins if they are doing consistently well – keep it fresh and interesting.

Next: house rules – like the incentive stickers/pebbles, decide as a family on a short list of rules that everyone in the house has to follow. Eg. speaking with respect / cleaning up after yourself when you've made a mess etc. At the day of the day/week, discuss as a family where you have all seen these things happening around the house. Everyone in the family can earn 'points' and decide as a family what big thing you are working towards – a theme park/zoo trip in the summer? A cinema trip? etc etc.

Next is simple but effective – when you are giving directions or instructions, tell her what you want to see from her, not want you don't. Instead of 'don't talk so loudly / stop running around the house / don't slurp your food', say 'please speak more quietly / please walk carefully around the house / please eat carefully and quietly.'

At the upper end of the pyramid are the more negative things you may have to do, once you have laid all the above underneath – ignoring and consequences.

Ignore low level undesirable behaviour – very tough to do, but try not to give an inch. If she is in a shouty, irritable mood or having a full blown tantrum, then this is not a teaching moment and there will be no reasoning with her. Unless she is harming others, herself or being destructive – just ignore her. Calmly tell her 'I can't help you when there is shouting' / 'I can't help you until things are calm' / 'I can't help you when you speak to me with a rude voice', and then say 'I will speak to you when you have calmed down', and either leave the room, or stay close by but get on with something else. Don't engage with a back and forth whatsoever.

Now – when you first start doing this, it's common for the behaviour to escalate. Their usual way of acting out and getting attention won't be working, so they will push harder. Persevere and they will grasp that it's no good. As soon as they are calm, praise them for calming their body down, offer a cuddle and ask what they need help with. When they are fully calm (and this might be the next day), speak about what happened, how feelings are OK but some behaviours aren't, and speak together about other ways we can let out our big feelings.

With the above, return to a warm and receptive demeanour as soon as she starts displaying desirable behaviour again.

Consequences are at the very stop of the pile and should be used infrequently and only when you have nailed all the above. They should also ideally be linked to the undesirable behaviour. Eg, they have a tantrum at the park = they have to leave the park. Now, that's not always possible – and that's why they should be so infrequently used, as they are just not incentivising for desirable behaviour. So you can make unlinked consequences when you absolutely have to, but I would use them only at the worst offences eg, breaking something in anger. Say something like 'Because you broke the vase, TV/screens are paused for the rest of the day. You can watch TV again tomorrow. Let me help you find something else to do.' Don't withdraw your warmth from her – if she is managing the consequence well, praise her for it, and tell her how well she is doing.

I have done all the above with my 8yr old twins for the last 7 months – both of them had behavioural issues in different ways. It's diligent work, and requires a lot of attention, but I have seen drastic improvements in both of them.

Next is simple but effective – when you are giving directions or instructions, tell her what you want to see from her, not want you don't. Instead of 'don't talk so loudly / stop running around the house / don't slurp your food', say 'please speak more quietly / please walk carefully around the house / please eat carefully and quietly.'

That's a good tip - tell them what you expect in clear consise langauge - and with tone that's what is happening ie no pleading just calm this is what is happening.

Rewards - were tricky with DS as was telling off and knowing you got through to him and school said the same. Reward charts were a recipy for making thing worse - yet everyone insisted if we persisted it would improve - never did.

It is finding what works for your child and your household - and everyone will insist there way is the best or only way - it's trial and error trying things and not chopping and changing to soon but also not peristing when it's clearly not working well and knowing which to do is a judgement call also what works changes as they get older and change themselves.

There will be bad days when you get things wrong or nothing is working and you have to forgive yourself and try and work out how to do better tommorow.

Lovingly and consistently correcting the poor behavior does eventually bring changes it's just hard work and the path if full of doubts and bad days.

How about really giving her a bloody good shouting.

She sounds a lot like I was at that age, especially if her apologies seem genuine. I agree with people saying it may be hormonal. I also have ADHD, which in hindsight probably contributed too.

I felt guilty every time I shouted at DM. I felt terrified every time I shouted at 'D'F, who I knew would scream back and smack me. But I still didn't know how to stop myself when the emotions overwhelmed me.

Time out/punishment may be necessary in the moment, but I think working on her emotional regulation and other ways to cope with frustration is more likely to reduce the behaviour in the long run.

I think you're a good parent asking for advice on this. In my experience it helps to be firm but calm and say they are not to talk to you like that and send them to their room or take away device. Then later explain that you won't put up with them speaking to you like that. Firm and fair always. Putting boundaries in now makes life soo much easier later on. Keep calm though, shouting never works!

She's shouting and being rude because she's angry. You say you get cross back at her, does that involve shouting by any chance? Expressing our anger healthily is a life long task and no eight year old should be expected to be perfect at it when plenty of adults struggle. I disagree with the punitive responses here. Your role as a parent as to teach her how to deal with her anger in a healthier way not to feel affronted.and so punish her. In the moment it's absolutely fine to say it's not ok to shout at me, do you need a timeout, or I need a timeout because I'm upset at being shouted at. You can absolutely correct but punishment isn't necessary and she's very sorry when she's calmed down. So when she is calm you can talk through strategies together which might work e.g. giving her some space, taking deep breaths, shaking out the anger. My kids are universally agreed to be beautifully behaved for others, not for me because I'm their mother but this is the approach I use and the one my mother used with me. Punishments are not necessary. Connect, teach and over time she will learn. This article has some great tips https://www.peacefulparenthappykids.com/read/angry-child

My daughter is 8 this year and is the exact same. I tell her she doesn’t talk to us like that and if she continues she gets sent to her room she gets her tablet taken etc

I very much agree with the setting out expectations of what you want not what you don’t want.
I’d look at influences eg are they watching unsuitable tv shows. Where is a 4yr old hearing you shut up to be saying that to her parents.

I found this part interesting:

‘It’s sometimes if she can’t do something-struggling with shoes etc or if she can’t get something right’.

The best way to handle a behaviour is to know the cause of it and then respond to that. There’s always a cause. Yes, you could get her to do as you say through punishment or fear of you as someone suggested (what the heck?!), but it’s much better to address the root cause.

So, it sounds like she struggles with coping when not getting things right or has a fear of failure or a lack of resilience. This makes a lot of sense when you described her as intelligent and also said this behaviour is relatively new and a change. Yes, you need to teach her to not be rude but she sounds like she needs better strategies to cope with not being perfect as something the first time.

Does she hold herself to a high standard always? Do you hold her to a high standard always? Is she allowed to fail? (If I got 99% on a test it was always - why not 100% etc. from my mum). Has school work just got harder and she’s no longer able to coast along on natural ability but is being challenged? Is she happy to get something wrong? Or conversely, does she often get things wrong and struggle but now she’s become aware of it and feels useless?

You need to teach her, and model, resilience so she can cope when faced with a minor setback and doesn’t turn straight to frustration and anger that she is then unable to control.

I don't see it that way. Cleaning the toilet is something she will have to learn anyway, why not a consequence of a household chore which isn't very pleasant. I didn't say have her clean it with her tongue.

With mine I used to say "Excuse me!" that was their cue to rethink what they had said or alter their tone. That was usually enough as they knew from experience it was better to take the get out option I offered. If they didn't they would be sent to their room with strict instruction that they were to stay there until they were ready to apologise and speak to me properly. Any continuation after that or failing to go to their room would be met with a removal of a privilege so loss of TV time, earlier to bed, no sweets at the weekend. If needed I'd add on another removal for every new sentence after I had told them to go to their room. When all was calm and I had had my apology we would discuss where they went wrong and I'd make clear my expectations. Removal of privileges remained regardless.

I was just going to suggest that it might be puberty. My previously mild mannered, polite and very well behaved dd turned into an absolute monster when she was around 8 or 9. If we spoke to her 'the wrong way' or she didnt get something she wanted, or we picked her up on her behaviour/tone of voice she would just go into one and talk back to us, start shouting and slamming doors etc. There were consequences for her behaviour (such as making her go to her room, removing privileges etc.) but it was a very challenging time.

I don't have any advice, I'm afraid, other than to be consistent and stressing to her, when she is calm, that you love her and want to help her, but that you don't like her behaviour sometimes, and ask her if she is aware of any specific triggers e.g. tired, hungry, overwhelmed from school etc.

Of note, we now suspect that our dd is autistic and possibly ADHD, albeit very high masking, and I believe these outbursts were actually meltdowns, especially as they tended to happen a lot after school, where she'd been trying to hold it together all day. I think the hormones from puberty just exacerbated everything. I'm pleased to say that this phase didn't last forever (she actually started to calm down once her periods started, believe it or not) and she doesnt have meltdowns anymore.

Yes, shouting at a kid that cant regulate her emotions when frustrated....that'll learn her.🙄

I love what this poster said when anticipating the outburst. Really great technique

I agree about anticipating where you can, and trying to put into words what their feelings are when storm clouds are gathering.
One pupil I taught, high-functioning Au/ADHD had taught himself that! In his own striking phrase, "My head goes all scribbly!" and I would notice a little bit of stimming. He found too much going on was his trigger, and if I could spot it in time, I could offer a solution; I had a walk-in cupboard in my classroom, and he would gratefully accept some down time in there, with the light off; any observer would have thought it was a mediaeval punishment! The rest of the class just calmly accepted that he needed a bit of down time.