Rude Dd answering back

[Constantheadachesgoaway]

Please does anyone have any advice

Dd is 8, very bright, funny, kind, but can change sometimes when frustrated/angry and shouts loudly, answers back and can say horrible things like calling us idiots etc. I get so cross back at her, but it makes things worse. When she’s calmed she often apologies and at that point i’m able to talk to her about how she can’t talk to us like that and so on. She listens, but then it happens again. She’s no trouble at school, hard working, lots of friends, doing really well with all her work, never in trouble.
Is this normal? What do I do?
I would have never dreamed of speaking to my parents or answering back the way she does
Feel like i’m failing as a parent

She’s definitely like this after school sometimes, I have a snack ready in the car and we just drive quietly for a while.
It’s sometimes if she can’t do something-struggling with shoes etc or if she can’t get something right

Try lowering your voice so that she can't hardly hear you and has to stop shouting to listen. Just say that you'll speak to her when she stops shouting. Sounds simple but I've seen it work. Otherwise it's just a matter of telling her that the next time she does it then you will take away whatever it is she holds dear (tablet/phone/TV time etc) and as soon as she starts shouting then remove the item straight away without hesitation.

Sadly there's too much gentle parenting these days. I know this sounds like it too but you staying calm is probably the best tactic.

Thank you x

Well, kids are more confident and lippy these days!

You have to train her. Icily calm - make eye contact, strong loud tone so she immediately stops whatever she is doing or literally ask her to come to you.

When she answers rudely - it’s a sharp “watch your tone young lady. Speak gently and say it nicely like this “xxxxxxx”. Try again, please !”

(modelling what to say helps as it gives her the right words to use. Drilling it makes it stick.)

Or:
”excuse me what did you just say to me? Would you speak to your teacher or Granny like that? Try again - this time be polite.”

Or:
”Please don’t say “frickin’”. It’s not a nice word. Say “very” or “sooooo” instead.”

Or
“I can see that you are angry about this, but in this house we don’t unleash our bad tempers on each other. If you are angry take a breath and blow it out for a count of five before you speak. Would you please leave the room, and when you are feeling calm come back in and we will have a sensible conversation.”

Or
”You say that you want to be treated like a grown up, but when you talk to me like that you sound like a child. Do you ever hear me talk like that? No.”

Or
”You are more likely to have a nice day if you are nice to me. I don’t feel like doing things for children who are rude and ungrateful.”

Or a very mild..
”I don’t know why you think that shouting at me is going to get you what you want. The answer is No, you can’t have it/do it. I know you want to, but the answer won’t change if you scream and shout. All you are doing is making yourself feel cross and upset. I’m not cross or upset! So you’re just making yourself mad for no reason.”

I blame Peppa Pig! The back chat al starts there.

Is she in the early stages of puberty? If so there may be a hormonal element that is hard for her to control.

Id encourage you to work with her on identifying triggers, strategies for early intervention when she’s beginning to struggle and strategies for de-escalating when things are getting close to the edge and then agree on a plan for what happens when she loses it.

These outbursts are awful for all of you and she needs your help with managing her feelings. Communication without the shouting and insults is a skill for life. You can do some short role plays to practice this when she’s calm. Give a lot of praise for successes.

A lot of effort but ultimately worth it to help her.

The Explosive Child is a helpful book.

Gosh, I don’t think so? Still seems so young. She’s completely different when not cross and a lovely child.

It's not really bad behaviour is it. It's a response to an emotion that she needs to get under control. You say you get 'so cross back at her' - does that mean shouting? Is that because, by any chance, you're feeling frustrated? 😂

You need to model the behaviour you want as well as respond to the behaviour you're getting. I've never really been one for 'consequences' because I tended to use tone of voice and instant response more than formal punishment, but you do what suits you. In my case I would have a very shocked face/ dramatic gasp at being called idiot and say in a calm and low voice something like 'do not speak to me like that' but if you've let it happen before that's not going to work.

What happens if you stay calm and say something like 'you seem frustrated.'?

Sympathy OP, I think some kids are just more prone to this. I also would have never spoken to my parents like this, my youngest is extremely polite - but my 8yo sounds very similar to yours!

They are also too big and strong to be dragged to their room, and no chance of getting through to them in the throes of rage. And no consequence means anything at the moment similarly.

I recognise that my child has intense emotions and I genuinely believe they lose control in this moment. I try and help them avoid getting to that stage - being hungry and tired definitely doesn't help, or I try and intervene early if I see them getting worked up

Otherwise I just disengage. Repeat like a broken record that that language is unacceptable/I will listen when they speak respectfully/we speak respectfully in our house and go about my business. They are also very apologetic afterwards, and we usually have a talk about appropriate behaviour/language, how they are allowed to be angry but they are not allowed to be rude etc etc.

I hope it works in the long run!! But mainly just wanted to give you some support as it sounds like you are a thoughtful and engaged parent , and I also do not find the advice if "just give consequences" or "just don't allow this behaviour" very helpful

Actually this is much better advice.

This. Don't give her any attention at all when she starts,just walk away and be very busy doing something else. If she ramps it up say " if you carry on then you won't be watching tv/ going on a playdate/ using the tablet"

You MUST stick to your guns every time so you need to keep calm and not escalate it yourself by using ridiculous consequences like never watching TV again etc.

My dd was somewhat like this when she was nine. Just to me, not anybody else. I came down on her like a tonne of bricks because I am the one who does absolutely everything for her. Nobody else was driving her to netball or making her packed lunch.

What would your parents have done or said to you?

I said all of the classic stuff along the line of

don’t you dare speak to me like that.
would you speak to Mrs Teacher like that? Well what makes you think you can talk to me that way.
you can go straight to your room and do not come down here until you are ready to apologise to me.

You should not be allowing there to be time for you to get cross back at her. It should be squashed as soon as she starts.

This is great advice if the ignoring doesn't work.

I don't know why people say toddlers or teenagers are the hardest - these Year 3-5 children, girls in particular can be rude little shits. And yes, it seems to be very clever girls, who wouldn't dare act this way at school, activities or friends' houses. They just seem unable to control their stroppy behaviour when they are tired, hungry or not getting their own way.

Keep on it OP. Teach her ways to communicate. Rather than flouncing have her say 'I am hungry, can I please have a snack', or 'Can I be left alone, I need to disconnect'.

Please don't post unhelpful clichés.

Yes send her to her room. take all electric devices away . Nothing but books and her mind. Continue with this, besides meal times until she can say sorry and convince you that she means it

I’ve always removed something ‘they love’ for a minimum of 48hours. They are warned that if they behave by doing X, their favourite thing will be withdrawn (game, devices, tv, playdates booked in that period cancelled/rescheduled). And then I am brutal with carrying it out.

If they do it again, they lose the item for 7 days. Worked a treat with mine - each suffered one 48hr and then 7 day consequence for a repeated offence. Never had to repeat it as it was sufficient thereafter to give the warning and reminder. If there was a third party involved, they also had to write a letter of apology to them explaining what they had done, why they now realised it was wrong and undertaking never to repeat it.

Not many will agree with me, but I believe in connection before correction. Validate that she’s really struggling, without capitulating or losing your temper. Calm empathetic responses, “you’re so cross right now, I can see it in your face, voice, words. I know what it’s like to feel so mad. Shall we try some slow breathing.” Later, when she’s calm you have the conversation about why it’s not ok to hurt people with our words and what the consequence should be. What does she think will help next time that volcano builds in her tummy etc. The empathising with big feelings, whilst having strong safe boundaries without shaming are what I have always found the most effective.

I go with who the hell do you think your talking to get to your room and give me your phone/ tablet whatever they have then ignore whatever tantrum follows she can come out when she's ready to be a reasonable human being. My eldest was like this and I didn't come down hard enough and it got so much worse in her teens this needs to be stamped out now why she is still young.

She’s allowed to kick and scream as much as she wants in her room. The lesson is that it’s not acceptable to do it to others. She can only come back once she’s calmed down.

@Constantheadachesgoaway Sit and watch Inside Out and Inside Out 2 with her. Let her name her own emotions so that she can learn that they are not who she is, just how she feels in that one moment. Ask her to tell you when that emotion is bubbling up, rather than when it's boiled over.

It is harder now, because there are lots of "models" of children being rude and how parents are just supposed to put up with it. Some of the best parents talk about how their kid comes home and unloads what they've seen at school on the parent. I'm not saying in the past there were never kids at school screaming at teachers, but it definitely wasn't as relentless as now. We all take on what we see.
Calmly telling her to go to her room/she doesn't get stuff if she screams like a toddler will help. Ask her to explain her feelings and give her opportunities at meals etc to talk about things that are bothering her.

Puberty is happening earlier and earlier these days. The maelstrom of hormones and, with my DDs, masking autism made a few years bloody awful.

I found that having a proper conversation in the car (all the best conversations happen there with DC of any age) about what DD should/shouldn’t do when she’s angry and being a shit and planning appropriate responses was best.

It seemed to be more productive talking about behaviour then as opposed to when they’re kicking off (won’t listen and tempers heightened) or immediately afterwards (were driven towards reconciliation and glad it’s over so still emotional).

It’s hard when kids are like this and none of the ‘normal’ sanctions work. Good luck @Constantheadachesgoaway

I’m really not convinced consequences or punishment are necessary here? She’s 8. There’s obviously a trigger or reason it’s happening. I would continue to de escalate by letting her vent in her room and then try and figure out the root cause.

She has to be scared of you - so scare her. First of all, no friends, no activities, no days out, no ipads or other devices until she has demonstrated for a few months she can behave. Warn her this is how things will be after any demonstration of disrespect - meaning rolling yes, talking to you with her back turned to you, etc. If this does not work, tell her you will have to send her for behavioural treatment and mean it, and send her to a child psychiatrist. If this does not improve things, tell her you will have to medicate her, without giving details of what medication, let her think it will be any scary thing. But you have to do it. But before every intervention, you have to notify her, well in advance, what exactly is going to happen, so she will understand a cause and effect connection.