Rude Dd answering back

[Constantheadachesgoaway]

Please does anyone have any advice

Dd is 8, very bright, funny, kind, but can change sometimes when frustrated/angry and shouts loudly, answers back and can say horrible things like calling us idiots etc. I get so cross back at her, but it makes things worse. When she’s calmed she often apologies and at that point i’m able to talk to her about how she can’t talk to us like that and so on. She listens, but then it happens again. She’s no trouble at school, hard working, lots of friends, doing really well with all her work, never in trouble.
Is this normal? What do I do?
I would have never dreamed of speaking to my parents or answering back the way she does
Feel like i’m failing as a parent

That's useful. Ffs

OP, definitely refuse to engage whilst she is behaving like this.

When she calms down you need to start with consequences like no technology, tv, etc.

Stop buying ANY treats.
Plain simple food.

Start saying NO to everything.

Bottom line is her behaviour is not acceptable and she needs to feel the consequences, not one day, but let it go on for a week so she really feels it.

Your life will be hell unless you step up.

Parenting is about the happy easy days, its about the tough ones where you put in the hard effort to rear them right.

Its not easy, but it has to be done for them, the family and home.

Out of control children ruin the family.

Zero tolerance. I wouldn’t tolerate being shouted at or called at idiot. There needs to be a how dare you tone - how dare you speak to your mum like that.
Model good behaviour in how you speak to her and others.
Speak calmly. Consequences like being sent to room or missing treats.
Encourage hobbies with good role models. Mine did brownies and dancing at that age.
Keep talking, evening or in car not face to face are good times.
Tight routine so she’s not hangry or tired. Encourage ways to relax eg quiet reading hour an hour after lunch.

Thank you so much x

It sounds as though you need to get to the heart of what is going on emotionally. You mentioned that these outbursts happen when she's struggling with her shoes or can't get something right. So her frustration is really with herself and she's lashing out at you. She may feel that she is an "idiot" if she can't do something correctly so that's the word she uses against you. I wonder a bit about an 8-year-old who struggles with shoe. Does she have other issues with motor skills or coordination? It could be that she is starting to notice that other children her age don't have these issues and she is feeling down about herself for that reason.

I would work with her on how to cope with anger and frustration. These are life skills that everyone needs. One technique I've used is the toolbox. You ask your child to visualise a box with the tools that she needs to help in situations when she feels overwhelmed. It's important to have this conversation when she's calm, not during or in the immediate aftermath of an outburst. Talk about strategies she could employ: deep breathing, going outside to run around the garden, listening to music, etc. Whatever helps her to regulate her emotions. Then in a situation when you see she's starting to become frustrated, ask her which tools she could use.

Another method that may help is to narrate your own reactions to stressful situations. Talk about how you're feeling and what you're doing to avoid an unhealthy or destructive response. Model the behaviour you want to see, but also articulate what you're doing so your DD can hear the steps you're going through.

Of course it's unacceptable for your DD to speak to you rudely and I would certainly pull her up on that every single time (calmly, without shouting at her). But I'd also delve a bit more deeply into her emotional responses.

You've had some very unhelpful replies considering you've come here to say "I don't know what to do, please help".

It's hard.

Their brains are still developing, their pre-frontal cortex isn't there yet but at that age they're still juggling all sorts of social issues, big feelings, expectations of them are higher, and they just can't process things well yet. Sometimes they're hangry and it escalates or tired and it comes out as anger.

What helps? In the long run but not in the moment when she kicks off, this is the stuff that can help: Routines, having good quality sleep and a balanced diet low in UPFs, having a good handle on energy levels - so making sure there's time to rest and time to move around/exercise/play, there's also work you can do around giving her the emotional vocabulary and understanding so you can better talk about how she's feeling.

I'm not an expert, I'm just trying to remember what the educational psychologist who's worked with our school has told us (I'm not a teacher!)

What you can do when she's actually being rude or shouting or in wound up state: be calm - I know it's so so so bloody hard when you're also stressed or angry or frustrated but in that moment you've got to suck it up buttercup and help to de-escalate not to add more chaos and anger and volume. Step back and make room - not the naughty step where she'd feel punished and abandoned but just giving some space, not crowding her (obvs this is easier at home). Sometimes breathing exercises or calming techniques can help if you've talked about using them calmly before the moment - you can use these too - like breathing in for a certain count and breathing out for a certain count. It helps to remove the panic and becomes more about soothing so you can get to the root of the issue rather than making a bigger deal about it. Validate her - "I can see you're upset" "I can see that you're frustrated" "I understand that you're annoyed about this" - she'll feel heard - it's so frustrating if you're hurt or cross about something and the other person doesn't even take that on board. "I know this is hard, let's find a better way to do it" or "I know you don't enjoy this thing, we can do it together". Arbitrary punishment when she's at a peak of being cross and wound up is just going add layer upon layer of anger and frustration and can escalate her distress. Of course, it's not OK for her to be rude to you or to use hurtful language or to lash out, but you can only properly talk about that afterwards when it's all de-escalated.

Talk with school, talk with her class teacher, say you know she doesn't behave like this in school but you're struggling at home and you'd like some advice and some signposting so you can feel more prepared and hopeful.

My step daughter was challenging for me in the last few years of primary school - it was a mix of above with some added hormones thrown in. It was usually when we were trying to get out of the house to school drop offs. I tried my best to keep things calm, keep us on schedule, make sure her and her younger siblings all were washed and dressed and fed and deposited at their separate schools and nursery. One thing I introduced was an early morning dog walk after dropping one child to breakfast club, so she'd get a walk, fresh air, and a calmer chat with just me and the baby and the dog before we headed off to her school, that way she was better regulated before going in to see her friends and teacher and I had a better morning and we were able to have a positive start even if she'd had an earlier meltdown about her plaits being too wonky or not wanting to brush her teeth or whatever. It didn't stop those moments completely but it stopped our whole morning routine being overshadowed by those moments. To facilitate that extra 20-30 min walk, I'd shower the night before and get the breakfast table set out before going to bed and do the breakfast washing up after the school run.

She's a lovely adult and was a lovely teenager. We don't have any shouting now. Neither of my sons were ever like it as kids or teens but I think she had a lot more to deal with at 8 than they did.

how I would respond depends on the type of outburst. If she has complaints about your rules or decisions, I would respond that you will discuss when she is ready to articulate an articulate an argument. Shouting and being rude is not effective. If she thinks you are wrong or that you need more information, she should explain why. Being willing to engage in actual discussion with your child can go a long way.

If she has outbursts when she feels frustrated or uncomfortable, I name the feeling and point out it is not acceptable to take negative feelings out on other people. Then ask if she wants help solving the problem or if she wants to calm down first.

my child is autistic so we couldn’t punish for this sort of thing. Everything is a teaching moment and a stepping stone to regulation. We are at a good place now.

Go watch Supernanny and get some tips

@Constantheadachesgoaway you take her by the arm up to her room and put her in there and tell her that she is on a 30min timeout. If she screams or tries to leave her room, you drag her back and add another 30mins and warn her the next step will be no phone/tablet for 1 week (depending on what she has) then you move to the tv/game station she has and then on to favourite toys and then on to favourite anything and if you have to strip that bedroom to basics you do it. Step by step. Let her watch you remove each item for each instance of bad behaviour.

This includes nice things she cares about outside the home like bows for her hair, her backpack, lace socks - you remove it all step by step until she gets the consequences.

You then reward the good behavior like calmly expressing herself, helping out around the house, being polite and kind etc. You let her earn her things back and you lavish positive attention on her.

She may be struggling to regulate herself but you are the adult and you are in control. If you don't get on top of this now, she will rule the roost by screaming at you until you back down until you are afraid of her and you're gobbling antidepressants to deal with a pre-teen nightmare.

When my son has his moments I abruptly ask him if he’d like to rewind what he’s just said.
gives him a chance to think about it and understand it’s not acceptable.
Kids are very in the moment.

😬

OP, we had some of this with DD around that age-not all the time but now as a teenager we still have outbursts where she is unpleasant and irrational and nothing seems to work. I think there is definitely a hormonal element- I looked into it when she was younger and found some literature about surges of hormones in 8/9 year olds. Ours is beautifully behaved at school and with others: nobody outside the family would believe it and sometimes it is over nothing, or at least from our perspective it seems like an enormous overreaction.

We have tried everything and nothing completely fixes it but I have tried to reframe it to seeing it like a toddler tantrum. She gets to a point of frustration and blows. We now stay very calm and don't really discuss it in the moment. She can't respond rationally so there's no point trying to talk about it right then. If she says something particularly outrageous, like calling me an idiot, I would say we don't talk about anyone like that and remove myself from the room. These days she often storms off and we leave her to it.

We have tried consequences but without success and I think rather than being deliberately unkind, she is just really struggling to manage her emotions and is always distraught afterwards. We have tried to get her to do some things to stop herself from getting out of control like the decider skills (worth a google) but without any success.

So we are just giving her some space in the moment. Luckily she is only ever like this at home. I think she puts plenty of energy into not being like this anywhere else and runs out where she feels safest.

The most useful thing DH and I have done is to support each other not to get cross/upset ourselves. It just exacerbates the situation. Currently we can go a month without it happening and she is fabulous in the interim and then we might have a few instances. She isn't a stressed or anxious person at all and takes most things in her stride but excessive tiredness can make things worse.

Her school were running a workshop on supporting teenage mental health that I did and that was good in reframing her behaviour as communication rather than actively being unpleasant which certainly rang true and made me feel better.

Lots of people will tell you to 'not allow it' and that their child would never be 'allowed' to speak to them like that or there would be Serious Consequences but limiting the emotional outbursts by not having one myself is the only thing we've seen any success with. If she could regulate in the moment she would. No consequence helps her to do that or prevents her from being like that in the future.

I am careful not to ask her a load of questions straight after school as that could be a flash point-she is better if she can come in, eat something and decompress and will then be very pleasant. I also don't ask her to do stuff I need her to do then either. I am aware I am very much managing her behaviour rather than changing it but I think that's as good as I'll get. The goal for me is to limit the frequency of times where she feels out of control and the duration. It is easier because it is always at home. Now she is 14 I can go to the shop, come back and she's out of the other side if my calmness is ebbing away.

Abuse her child you mean?

Disgusting and deeply offensive yo those of us who actually experienced abuse as children

I second the Explosive Child book. My daughter is like this and has been for years but she is the most kind, lovely person no one would know. I think for my daughter it’s sparked by insecurity - if something is happening at school that’s hard, if her brother is winding her up or if food is being served that she doesn’t like. I have the best results when I am present but don’t argue back. She is also incredibly apologetic afterwards.

Jeeesus. I don't want my children to be scared of me! I want them to feel supported by me and loved by me and cared for by me.

Two of my children are over 18 and one's a teenager, they are all polite, well adjusted, intelligent, kind, hard working and friendly human beings who get on well with their parents, friends, relatives, teachers, coaches etc. This has not been achieved through fear.

I used to say to mine ‘ on the day I shout at you and call you names, you’re allowed to do the same to me. Until that day, you can’t. It’s not acceptable to me and if you can’t stop doing it then you’ll spend time in your bedroom thinking more about it’

But mine are now 27 and 19 so not sure if that advice still works 😂

Because it was extremely unusual for me to lose my temper, they tended - on the whole - to listen to this. Your best bet is to not rise to it when she is being rude - so don’t shout back or lose your temper.

consequences wouldn’t go amiss either - just make sure you follow through and try and make them relatable to the ‘offence’ if possible

But really it’s about expectations and reminding her of those regularly

Don't do this, OP.

This is my experience as well. I love all the answers, of time outs, punishments etc. But these parents simply haven't experienced these hormonal, defiant to the end girls that will cut of their nose to spite their face. I have 2 other perfectly well behaved children who would never dream of being so rude, defiant or nasty to others, to whom punishments, consequences, rewards etc will work very well, and they are a dream to parent.

Truly it is the biggest challenge in our family's day to day life. Do feel for OP and all others with similar situations, and wish there were clearer answers.

Are you currently spotting the signs / the before moments of these moments of rudeness and giving warning of potential consequences?

"you are starting to show signs of rudeness"; "Clara, you are beginning to raise your voice towards me and I need you to stop or you will need to go to your room until you can talk civilly" / "Rachael, I can see you are frustrated but if you continue to do X then Y will happen".

Doling out consequences after the fact, with no warning beforehand are far less likely to be successful IME.

I'd also make the consequences very obviously linked to the behaviour.

I see this as consequences. It’s certainly not abuse.
There’s so much of what seems to be called “gentle parenting” going on that kids are ruling the roost and running rings round the parents.
This child needs to quickly learn that shouting at and being rude to her parents isn’t acceptable or appropriate and if she isn’t stopping then consequences have to be in place.
OP is going to end up with a feral child to deal with that suits herself if she doesn’t get a handle on this really quickly.

Well you simply stop providing anything beyond food and shelter for a day. If that doesn’t focus her mind make it three days. She can sit in her room, come down for meals, or have a sandwich, no phone no tv no music. Ignore her and have some time to yourselves. I’d tell her it’s going to happen so she has plenty of time to get a grip.

I assume neither of you shout or are rude to her.

I think locking a child in her room for 3 days counts as abuse.

I couldn’t care less if she’s screaming or shouting, I would have dragged her up the stairs and shoved her in her room. But I am a tough parent, and I’m old enough that when I answered back occasionally I was smacked, so being hauled up the stairs is an improvement on that.

This sounds like a emotional disregulation problem rather than a necessarily a discipline problem, as my son with ADHD struggles with this a lot.
(Unless you have never given consequences for actions, but it sounds like you have, as she behaves at school and apologises after the fact)

The trick with emotional disregulation is you have to be extremely calm and regulated yourself (this can be VERY difficult if like me you also have ADHD and/or were born in the 80's and absolutely would have been punished for this behaviour as a kid! as their behaviour feels really disrespectful even though it's not in fact about you)

My son is a mummas boy through and through and adores me, but when frustrated and disregulated he will tell me he hates me and wishes I didn't exist...😳 If I respond emotionally or harshly, he will become more disregulated and escalate further. If I respond calmly with a boundary and no emotion he will gradually de-escalate.
That is unkind.
I will talk to you when you remember how to be nice.
Screaming will not make me change my mind.
You can be mad but you can't be mean.
You don't get to take your frustration out on your sister.
Less is definitely more!
THEN the important part, when the emotional wave has passed and they are calm, that is when you discuss their behaviour. My son is always upset if I remind him of mean things he said to me in the heat of the moment 😢 I remind him that words don't go away...what would happen if he behaved that way in school, for example.
If there was a bad behaviour in the midst of the disregulation, then he gets a consequence (as closely linked to the behaviour as possible.i.e if he made a mess, he cleans it up) but that part HAS to come when they are calm and thinking brain is engaged...so when she comes to apologise after the fact

You can't teach a child to regulate their big feelings, by responding with big feelings of your own. I will even tell him sometimes that he is making me mad by shouting at me, so I am gonna take a minute before I shout back (this is part of our ongoing discussions about our ADHD) and believe me, though I share this knowledge I am far from perfect at it!! Hormones and ADHD are a b*tch!

Emotional disregulation happens in all children before anyone jumps on me for "diagnosing everyone" just a lot more often on a lot bigger scale with it, so you have to learn what to do to deal with it!!