For feeling disappointed with my midwife friend

[southernerer]

One of my closest friends is a seniority midwife, we discussed this weekend my plans to train as a hypnobirthing teacher to have more flexible working and an added income. Her response was very firmly what a load of hippy nonsense, I explained it has helped myself and other friends cope with birth and manage without epidurals, she had been shocked at her own pain levels during birth and had requested an epidural at 4cm. To be clear im all for whatever pain relief you want but she openly admits she didn't cope well during her birth so feel she should be more open minded to things they could help esp as she's planning her second soon.
Also when I mentioned having a third baby, and after an EMCS then ELCS, I'd like another ELCS she was very very pushy that I should have a VBAC.
In other areas she's very open and not rigid in her thinking, for example her 3yr old still breastfeeds and bed shares every night with her but I just feel angry that women in her care must come across this very unsupportive midwife if their choices don't fit with her opinions!

YABU. She's allowed to think it is hippy nonsense and I think it's a bit off of you to suggest that she could have avoided an epidural if she'd just indulged your new income stream this hippy nonsense.

Honestly, how many births do you both have experience of do you reckon? She's seen a whole lot more than you.

I'd be annoyed too. Fair enough it didn't work for her, but that doesn't mean it can't work for others.

I find it equally as irritating when people dismiss natural methods of childbirth as when others (often men) say that all women should just have c sections. People have different ideals and preferences when it comes to birth and that's fine.

Personally I'd hate to still be breastfeeding and bed sharing when my child was 3 but I wouldn't judge your friend for it. She should definitely be less judgemental in her position.

I don’t know enough about hypnobirthing to know if midwives in general support it, but it sounds like you were equally rude and dismissive of her. It’s clear that you view her asking for pain relief as giving in which is just rubbish.

I am a big fan of hypnobirthing techniques, as are all my midwife friends (4) and the one obstetrician friends.
However, all 6 of us are very dubious about the number of women “training” as hypnobirthing teachers. Partly the quality of the training. But also partly the number of them that have seen one or two (of their own) labours in actual real life, and have an attitude that someone needing an epidural at 4cm maybe just didn’t practise their mantra enough, or listen carefully enough on the pain-tension-fear triangle page.

I love hypnobirthing, but have a healthy sceptism of some of the people drawn to evangelically preach it.

What are her opinions based on? Years of experience? Hundreds of births? She has a right to her opinions , as do you, but you have no right to undermine her expertise because it doesn’t fit with your own way of thinking. There are plenty of people who disagree with the “natural birth movement “ and in many ways first time mums, who are extremely vulnerable and easily influenced, have to sit through hours of quite frankly ridiculous NCT bullshit. Think of it like this: it’s the difference between a Bentley and a Lamborghini- it’s not that one is better than the other - they are just very different and different cars suit different people and situations. Your opinion is different to hers, that’s all

I don’t understand how you can teach hypno birthing and have had an ELCS and want another one for your third? So the mums are going to you to learn how to cope with birth and you are not practicing what you preach? I’m sure hypnobirthing is useful for a section but it’s not the same thing as a vaginal birth especially not with a planned one. Disclaimer, all types of ways to get the baby out make you a mother, none are better but this just seems a bit odd!! Like teaching everyone to speak french but then saying I only ever holiday in Spain! Your friend probably thinks you are a bit nuts getting involved in an industry she has trained years for and had real experience of, without any actual experience of successful hypno birthing yourself.

Having ended up with PTSD from a traumatic birth that was made 100 times worse by the attitude of midwives to me, you are not unreasonable, in fact speaking with others the attitude of midwives seems to play a large part in making matters worse. So your friend’s attitude of my way or the highway sounds depressingly common. Yes there are great midwives but they appear in a minority. And yes that attitude can affect vulnerable women for years.

I really dislike a lot of midwives ( sorry flame me ) for their hypocritical views .

I agree she sounds odd

I'm with your friend. I think its a scandal that women are steered away from perfectly safe pain relief during labour by a weird mixture of woo and misogynistic ideas about the perfect labour.

I don't know if you expressed to your friend that you believe hypnobirthing would have allowed her to avoid an epidural -- hopefully not - but the fact you've expressed it here suggests you buy into this. If I were here and I'd got a hint from the conversation that you think hypnobirthing or whatever would have allowed her to avoid having an epidural I'd have seen red.

Plus, as has been pointed out already, she's presumably been involved in numerous deliveries and realises that no amount of hypnobirthing can eliminate the need for pain relief.

I don't have a problem with hypnobirthing per se if it helps people have a more relaxed and positive mindset but I loathe the way women are bullied into thinking that pain relief is bad and if they were a better earth mother they wouldn't need it.

"I don't have a problem with hypnobirthing per se if it helps people have a more relaxed and positive mindset but I loathe the way women are bullied into thinking that pain relief is bad and if they were a better earth mother they wouldn't need it."

Just this really!

Hypnobirthing fine - I got a prep DVD and birth DVD. Think coach and all that money would be a scam

I'm not hiding her for breastfeeding etc still I just used that as an example to show she's open to what are considered more modern ways of parenting. I just feel as a midwife she should be open and supportive of women's birth choices.
@FourTeaFallOut where did I suggest in my post she could have avoided an epidural is she'd used hypnobirthing?? I actually don't think it's an either or situation and can be a useful tool to women who want an epidural or other pain relief. She actually used to mock 'all these women screaming and crying' until she had her own baby then admitted the experience would make her more sympathetic when she went back after Mat leave.
I just hoped as midwife she should support women more in their choices but was shocked at how dismissive she was 🤷‍♀️

I think it’s all fine really, whatever helps a woman get through it is great. I think women should just be told that any pain relief they want to have is fine, no shame attached to it. You really do not receive a medal for doing it without pain relief, trust me I know…

I just feel angry that women in her care must come across this very unsupportive midwife if their choices don't fit with her opinions!

So you don't trust her to be professional enough to treat the women in her care differently than she treats a 'friend' in conversation?

@SuperMonkeys

Honestly, how many births do you both have experience of do you reckon? She's seen a whole lot more than you.

Honestly - one of my friends is a midwife and swears by hypnobirthing so it's got nothing to do with OP's vs midwife's experience. She says the best and easiest births she's seen have all been hypnobirthing ones and that the power of the mind has a huge impact on the body during birth.

In my experience, people who practise hypnobirthing feel guilted into not having medical pain relief during birth. They all want to be the story that found it amazing and put so much pressure on themselves to avoid epidurals.

The teachers are all really passionate about it and don't seem to grasp that everyone's pain threshold is different. Proven by your attitude to your friend having an epidural at 4cm. Fair play to her, I wish I had asked for mine earlier than I did.

One quick Google gives me a 3 day course for those with no experience of birth education for £1350, proclaiming you could manage your own hours and earn £3K a month.

And the site owner actually uses the phrase “mum boss”.

Is it any wonder a qualified professional was unimpressed by your plans?

I said upthread, I’m a big fan.
My “hypnobirthing” teacher had her own devised course (it was the early days of popularity). She had delivered 3 of her own (2x vagina, 1x Emcs) and more importantly had 10 years experience as an NHS clinical psychologist, and was an experienced hypnotherapist.

What makes you think that you’ll be better able to support women and their childbirth choice with your 3 days training (is that your plan?) than her?

I’m all for hypnobirthing - but a pregnant woman should be careful what “Mum Boss” she chooses to pay as her teacher. Otherwise Mum Boss may be pushing Tropic on her in the same workshop 🙄

Yabu this midwife is allowed opinions that don’t match yours.
She’s not speaking to you in a professional capacity

Did you really just claim that extended BF is one of the "more modern ways of parenting"? Cos I'm pretty sure it's old as the hills

She’s voicing her opinion which she’s allowed to have.

My midwife thought NCT was a load of nonsense and encouraged women to have unrealistic expectations of a perfect birth. She felt encouraging women to remain in control even if that meant going against medical advice was dangerous eg refusing an induction at 41 weeks.

She also said she couldn’t stand it when women arrived with blankets to cover up equipment etc.

I find it worrying you don't seem to be able to distinguish her talking to you as a friend and her talking to the parents she meets as part of her job. Just because she thinks hypno birthing is nonsense doesn't mean she isn't professional, supportive and respectful with the wishes of those she looks after at work. Her views are just that, hers and that doesn't mean she's not an excellent midwife.

Hypnobirthing and ELCS seem fairly contradictory.

You’re going to teach hypnobirthing when you’ve never had a vaginal birth? Lol

To be clear I'm all for women being allowed whatever pain relief they want and don't for a minute think that hypnobirthing should be an alternative to this for women that want drugs. I think it's a good tool for having a more positive birth and feeling more in control of the choices their making and the situation.
Perhaps my OP wasn't clear enough, I'm not judging her about when or having an epidural at all apart from the fact she used to mock women in pain who wanted one as if they were weak then when it came to her own birth she wanted one and had since changed her tune on them.
@Cocomarine I actually have a nursing degree so have a clear understanding of human anatomy and dealing with patient care, I agree 3 days is not enough for anyone to administer any level of care to people and would be upset to think women's birth experiences could be used along the lines of forever living MLMs etc