For feeling disappointed with my midwife friend

[southernerer]

One of my closest friends is a seniority midwife, we discussed this weekend my plans to train as a hypnobirthing teacher to have more flexible working and an added income. Her response was very firmly what a load of hippy nonsense, I explained it has helped myself and other friends cope with birth and manage without epidurals, she had been shocked at her own pain levels during birth and had requested an epidural at 4cm. To be clear im all for whatever pain relief you want but she openly admits she didn't cope well during her birth so feel she should be more open minded to things they could help esp as she's planning her second soon.
Also when I mentioned having a third baby, and after an EMCS then ELCS, I'd like another ELCS she was very very pushy that I should have a VBAC.
In other areas she's very open and not rigid in her thinking, for example her 3yr old still breastfeeds and bed shares every night with her but I just feel angry that women in her care must come across this very unsupportive midwife if their choices don't fit with her opinions!

I'm a bit baffled tbh that someone who wants to be a hypnobirth teacher hasn't had a vaginal birth themselves and is choosing an elcs for their next birth.

While I applaud your decision to further your education and help other women to have another option in their birthplan a Nursing Degree is not the same as a Midwifery Degree. While you may have a working knowledge of A and P of a pregnant female your nursing degree would not have trained you in the full autonomy that a Registered Midwife has on qualification. So it is not comparable to use your nursing degree as a basis for your knowledge base. As a Nurse you won't have undertaken the 40 complete deliveries that are required to gain a qualification that a Student Midwife would have to do. That's just one assessment that HAS to be completed amongst staggering amounts of antenatal and postnatal examinations and competencies that have to be acquired in order to qualify and register with the NMC! So in this case your midwife friend would have a significant amount of knowledge and experience linked with expertise than yourself on which to base her opinion.

Yeah I am a huge advocate of hypnobirthing, did it for both my labours. Probably wouldn't pay to attend a class for someone who opted for an ELCS to encourage me to take a natural, mindful based approach. Sorry.

YABU. It is just a load of hippy bullshit and can actually be quite dangerous to labouring women.

This will be what you are taught. Teachers of hypnobirthing (outside of hospital / midwives) are very pushy to the 'natural way'.

If you don't think like that, you will struggle to teach concepts that are against your own belief principles.

I'm glad to see it isn't just the ones near us that are very 'natural' focused. If the OP does a course and joins a team that does classes similar to these then there is very unlikely to be any focus on hypnobirthing alongside using drugs. From the courses we looked at drugs and intervention were very much the 'enemy'.

[quote southernerer]@GreenCrayon I would view a positive birth as it going the way you envisioned it would and if it didn't that you felt consulted in any decisions made and not fearful/out of control. If that means pain relief then I don't think hypnobirthing should be an alternative but a coping mechanism to work alongside your chosen pain relief[/quote]
If hypnobirthing was genuinely simply a way for women to relax/manage anxiety in the run up to and during labour it would be fine. And no doubt some women use it like this.

But its steeped in this whole subtext about "positive" or "natural" birth. Often accompanied by very very sketchy "evidence" of the impact of pain meds during labour. I remember during my antenatal classes (not NCT but local midwife led) they had one single, highly dubious study which made some very tenuous links to potential negative side-effects of epidural and none at all on the vast amount of scientific literature that shows epidural is fine if managed properly.

If you really unpick this language about "positive" birth or "natural" birth, its part of a broader narrative in which women are persuaded that there is some benefit either to themselves or to their babies of them not using pain relief during labour. When there is no rigorous evidence whatsoever that pain relief does any harm.

I find it quite disturbing that so many women have persuaded themselves that experiencing one of the most painful things a human being can go through without pain relief gives them some societal or moral high ground or bragging rights. It's horrible, to be honest. It's hard to escape the suspicion that this is just another way to make women feel that they are cheating themselves if they don't suffer in order to be mothers.

The whole "natural childbirth" things gives me the heeby jeebies big time.

I explained it has helped myself and other friends cope with birth and manage without epidurals - I assume you had some pain relief for your CS?

I really, really hate all the natural childbirth experience woo, and I've heard (through friends) so many of those 'teachers' simply lying to the course participants about pain relief options, timings and side effects.

'Aww poor thing, so you could not cope and had to have an epidural?'
Or, how about I chose what modern medicine offers and had a lovely, calm and relaxing experience, instead of chewing a pillow, mooing and trying to convince myself that 'it's not pain, it's pressure'.

she openly admits she didn't cope well during her birth so feel she should be more open minded to things they could help esp as she's planning her second soon
As someone who had a complicated labour where both my myself and baby were at risk, every bit of hypnobirthing went out the window. I'll not be wasting my time or money again.

One quick Google gives me a 3 day course for those with no experience of birth education for £1350, proclaiming you could manage your own hours and earn £3K a month

God that’s absolutely horrific. People cashing in on vulnerable women. It’s so distasteful that there are people out there who see women giving birth as an opportunity to make some cash, so they do a three day course then try to cash in. Sickening.

If you really unpick this language about "positive" birth or "natural" birth, its part of a broader narrative in which women are persuaded that there is some benefit either to themselves or to their babies of them not using pain relief during labour

I was reprimanded (and my post deleted) for posting my experience jn a hypnobirthing fb group - I had severe preeclampsia and delivered my son at 26 weeks via emergency c section -despite the fact I actually (despite circumstances) found it a positive one and used some of the hypnobirthing techniques.

They didn't want to hear my personal birth experience it as it might frighten others - only positive natural births/pregnancy are worth hearing about so we can pretend that birth and pregnancy always goes smoothly.

I do think hypnobirthing is a gimmicky term though - aside from the pushing for a natural birth I found it was all just a form of mindfulness.

YANBU. Sadly there are plenty of unsupportive so-called professionals within the NHS when it comes to obstetrics & gynae. This shouldn't be tolerated, but alas it is. I have a lenghty history of loss/pregnancy and it was certainly a very mixed bag, with some great, listening staff and some downright awful that shouldn't be in their jobs.

Very best of luck with your training. Make sure you choose a good provider and make the most of it. Also your birth choices are precise that: YOUR birth choices, not your pushy MW friend's. xx

Some of my friends think hypnobirthing has been useful but most of us think it is actively dangerous. It underplays the pain and sets you up for failure and disappointment.

I'm sorry but I really don't see how someone who is electing to have a CS (as will I) can teach from a genuine place.

Looks like you have had to take quite a lot of points in this thread. I think that’s something to reflect upon, OP.

I remember in "junior" (I thought the film was hysterically funny & obviously impossible) when the dani de vito was trying to encourage his wife to have natural child birth & she grabbed by the collar & said "drugs"!
I had 3 induced labours the first was (ugh) breech (overdue each time) - I doubt hypnobirthing would have been any help - I really needed something stronger as the labour was out of control - I wouldn't want someone inexperienced as you are in understanding pain in childbirth
As pp said the kind of training that lasts 3 days??? that's an introduction or for someone having a baby to help them use it - not giving someone a professional qualification.

Hypnobirthing is a lot of old crap. I actually bought into the whole “breathe the baby out” and then reality hit and I wasn’t prepared for it. Your midwife friend is entitled to her own opinion. I know who I’d want next to me if I was giving birth.

even with my experiences - I wouldn't regard myself as qualified enough to do this - as pp said if you don't know enough to recognise danger signs in pregnancy.
Slightly different track - I heard of someone who had Doula because she wanted to have her breech baby at home rather than medicalised - it didn't go well for either the baby or the mother - lifetime issues for the child. My dd was born a bit blue but healthy & I shudder at the thought of what could have happened if we weren't in hospital

To be clear I'm all for women being allowed whatever pain relief they want and don't for a minute think that hypnobirthing should be an alternative to this for women that want drugs.

I don't understand this. You're 'all for women being allowed whatever pain relief they want. How very generous of you...

Me teaching a woman hypnobirthing is not me saying I should be there making medical decisions and personally being the one delivering her baby, nor am I saying I would have the equivalent experience of birth as a midwife, my OP was stating I was disappointed she was dismissive of it as some women might want to try it during labour and I had hoped most midwives would be supportive. As I've already said I accept she may have been talking only as a friend and would behave differently to these women she may encounter at work

@RitaTheGreeter what's your point? Genuinely I don't understand your comment

I did a hypo birthing course with the hospital that wasn’t about natural birth- it was about trying to stay in control and as a potential option of one of many options for pain relief. I used it twice. First birth all the drugs, hideous experience. Second birth hypnobirthing and pool. I didn’t do hypnobirthing better but just had a much easier labour. Just luck really.

But if someone wants to try it what do you think you could offer them that a book, Internet video or Google search couldn't.

I appreciate you think it helped you but I don't see why you then think you would be best placed to teach others especially if you're training and working through a company that isn't as progressive in 'allowing' those giving birth to have any drugs they want.

@Cocomarine

I am a big fan of hypnobirthing techniques, as are all my midwife friends (4) and the one obstetrician friends. However, all 6 of us are very dubious about the number of women “training” as hypnobirthing teachers. Partly the quality of the training. But also partly the number of them that have seen one or two (of their own) labours in actual real life, and have an attitude that someone needing an epidural at 4cm maybe just didn’t practise their mantra enough, or listen carefully enough on the pain-tension-fear triangle page.

I love hypnobirthing, but have a healthy sceptism of some of the people drawn to evangelically preach it.

Hear, hear.

I wonder if she feels like your stepping on her toes a little bit? (Birthing expertise is her thing!)

@GreenCrayon some people prefer a more practical in person learning experience than reading and find they retain information better that way plus it would offer the option to ask questions I suppose that may not be covered in the book that have. I haven't mentioned a company that I'm training through so not sure what you mean there? Maybe confused with a previous posters comment

I should point out I told her what the surgeon said about another section after she'd said have a VBAC she wasn't trying to push it after being given that info

Wait, what. So essentially, she shared her opinion about VBAC, maybe even argued for it based on her experience of witnessing probably hundreds of births (perhaps she feels she’s seen situations where repeat CS is harder on the mum in her opinion), but as soon as you said it wasn’t medically possible for you, she said no more. Yes, this definitely sounds like an “unsupportive” medical professional.