For feeling disappointed with my midwife friend

[southernerer]

One of my closest friends is a seniority midwife, we discussed this weekend my plans to train as a hypnobirthing teacher to have more flexible working and an added income. Her response was very firmly what a load of hippy nonsense, I explained it has helped myself and other friends cope with birth and manage without epidurals, she had been shocked at her own pain levels during birth and had requested an epidural at 4cm. To be clear im all for whatever pain relief you want but she openly admits she didn't cope well during her birth so feel she should be more open minded to things they could help esp as she's planning her second soon.
Also when I mentioned having a third baby, and after an EMCS then ELCS, I'd like another ELCS she was very very pushy that I should have a VBAC.
In other areas she's very open and not rigid in her thinking, for example her 3yr old still breastfeeds and bed shares every night with her but I just feel angry that women in her care must come across this very unsupportive midwife if their choices don't fit with her opinions!

I wish I’d had a midwife who was more open to things like epidurals so I didn’t feel like a failure for not being able to “manage” back to back induced labour with non stop contractions on a drip through just heavy breathing and whale music.

@UhtredRagnarson do you agree it's commonplace for women to be able to and want to breastfeed till their children are 3+? How many mothers do you know? Breastfeeding of course isn't modern I'm not an idiot but the idea of attachment parenting in modern times is a relatively new label and that is what she describes herself as doing

@Cocomarine

One quick Google gives me a 3 day course for those with no experience of birth education for £1350, proclaiming you could manage your own hours and earn £3K a month.

And the site owner actually uses the phrase “mum boss”.

Is it any wonder a qualified professional was unimpressed by your plans?

I said upthread, I’m a big fan.
My “hypnobirthing” teacher had her own devised course (it was the early days of popularity). She had delivered 3 of her own (2x vagina, 1x Emcs) and more importantly had 10 years experience as an NHS clinical psychologist, and was an experienced hypnotherapist.

What makes you think that you’ll be better able to support women and their childbirth choice with your 3 days training (is that your plan?) than her?

I’m all for hypnobirthing - but a pregnant woman should be careful what “Mum Boss” she chooses to pay as her teacher. Otherwise Mum Boss may be pushing Tropic on her in the same workshop 🙄

Yep. All of this. I would never trust someone who had no experience of hypnobirthing or delivering lots of babies, and who just fancied making some extra, flexible money, to coach me in how to handle something as massive as my labour and delivery.

Breastfeeding of course isn't modern I'm not an idiot but the idea of attachment parenting in modern times is a relatively new label and that is what she describes herself as doing

Just because the label is fairly modern doesn't mean that style of parenting is. Extended breastfeeding, baby wearing, Co sleeping and all the other trappings associated with attachment parenting are some of the oldest parenting ideas in existence.

@GreenCrayon yes agreed that's why I said new label not new concept

[quote southernerer]@GreenCrayon yes agreed that's why I said new label not new concept [/quote]
Yes but your implying she's very accepting of modern ideas because she uses this label when in fact everything she is doing is very old school.

Not that any of what she thinks or does matters as its clear she's not rigid in only sticking to her views when working so it's all a bit moot.

You called them “more modern ways of parenting” which is clearly nonsense. Breastfeeding, bed sharing, baby wearing is as old as the hills. You really do have lots of studying to do if you want to pursue this career. You have some funny ideas that will definitely not install confidence in pregnant women.

@Talkwhilstyouwalk

As a midwife she's probably been taught to be focused on the medical side of things. I have to say that any hypnobirthing or tens machine stuff that I tried went out the window once labour got into full swing.....but each to their own, I'm sure it helps some people!!

If she has been trained as a midwife in Britain, she has actually been trained very much in the "Natural birth is best" school of thought.

Plenty of midwives out there who poo-poo pain relief and try to guilt women into not asking for it, who take a dim view of epidurals even when there is no medical reason why the woman can't have one, etc.

The woo attitudes of many women, the competitiveness, etc, a lot of this is (not necessarily deliberately) actually promoted by the midwifery profession.

@DingDongThongs

Noyoubekind...how many hundreds did you part with?

You did not fail. She failed you both.

@DingDongThongs and @Namechangedlady sorry I missed your comments - thank you for your kindness. DS is now 15 so hardly a baby but it still burns and reinforced the birth trauma I'm still carrying. DS is an only child, put it that way.

It was in the region of £400 and I was told words along the lines of 'I'd prefer if you didn't pop back to class to share your story as you were unable to use the taught techniques to manage a more natural birth and I don't want to scare the other ladies.'

I think the biggest lie sold to women in childbirth is that you can be in control. 'Here are techniques to help you feel in control.' I actually think it would be much more helpful to say 'you are out of control of this process, here are techniques to help you roll with that.'

She’s probably anti something which makes women feel like failures because they couldn’t push something the size of a watermelon out of their vagina with just the power of positive thought.

Money making nonsense.

She’s probably anti something which makes women feel like failures because they couldn’t push something the size of a watermelon out of their vagina with just the power of positive thought.

But those of us who have had a good experience with childbirth? With my second I'd discovered breathing techniques. It was actually really helpful. It calmed me down and helped me have the birth I wanted. I'm not sure why everyone has to be so negative and angry!

Why do you know so much about each others births?

I think the biggest lie sold to women in childbirth is that you can be in control. 'Here are techniques to help you feel in control.' I actually think it would be much more helpful to say 'you are out of control of this process, here are techniques to help you roll with that.'

Completely agree, 100%

It's something I've been wary of and tried to talk about with homebirths because so much of the surrounding rhetoric is how much more control someone has compared to hospital -- but so much of it is still out of our control. I felt guilty for ages that I should have done this or that after I'd had a hospital transfer for retained placenta. There is always a dice roll to birth, between biology, who is going to be there for support which for low-risk births I think plays far more of a role than the home vs hospital debate, and so many other factors.

There are techniques to help cope that can make a difference, but the idea of being in control or ensuring it's the positive experienced one imagined is something I think causes more harm than benefit when it comes to birth. I remember my last birth plan was basically: "I'm terrified, this is briefly why, here are my medical conditions that may have an affect during and after birth, this is what I find is helpful in managing my conditions and labour and would appreciate help with that'. Openly discussing my fears and having an empathic HCPs who understood and helped when I panicked did far more for me than thinking I could be in control if I just did X - sometimes those things helped, sometimes they bit me in the ass when they didn't.

'I think the biggest lie sold to women in childbirth is that you can be in control. 'Here are techniques to help you feel in control.' I actually think it would be much more helpful to say 'you are out of control of this process, here are techniques to help you roll with that.'

Yep agree with this. Anyone who has had a serious complication knows any pretence at being in control goes out the window very quickly in an emergency.

I’m always a bit pissed off by the notion that women should find ways to “cope” or “manage” during childbirth. Why the fuck should we have to “cope”?? You don’t “cope” with the pain when you have a tooth pulled, you take some damn painkillers. Why the hell should the best we aim for be to “cope”??

I had a pain relief free labour with a back to back baby (unfortunately nobody realised he was back to back until his head was out), it took me 12 hours to get from 3cms to the all important 4 before I could even have gas and air (which doesn’t count as pain relief as far as I’m concerned) and by the time I finally succumbed to the pain and exhaustion and asked for an epidural I was already 10cms so it was too late because “you can start pushing now, baby will be here in 10 minutes”. I pushed for two hours, with him crowning and going back in again and I was in absolute agony. I had to have an episiotomy/ventouse in the end and looking back I do wonder why I let myself suffer for so long.

If midwives in the UK to tend to lean towards natural, pain relief free childbirth because that’s what they are taught, then I’d bet good money that the reason they are taught that is because it’s cheaper for the NHS. Drugs and elective sections are expensive.

I thought Hypno birthing would get me through an early back to back induced labour. Ha! Optimistic was an understatement. YABU to imply she could've or ought to have avoided an epidural

Should add, I did use the hypnobirthing breathing techniques I learned on the PBC course and they helped initially (aided in no small part by my tens machine). But I was never going to be able to breathe my baby out and it was always going to hurt that much more because he was the wrong bloody way round. None of which I knew when my labour started or I’d have said sod the water birth and the breathing and got my epidural as soon I could! I think my midwives thought I was just being a drama llama first timer when I tried to communicate that while I had no previous experience of labour I felt fairly sure the level of pain I was experiencing was not normal. It was only when his head was out and he was looking up at them all that they were like “ohhhhh, he’s back to back, yeah no wonder you were in so much pain/he wouldn’t come out!”. Great. Thanks.

But I wanted my nice calm water birth (which in reality was never going to happen because he was OP) and I let myself suffer for far too long, ultimately for no reason. Won’t be making that mistake the second time around.

I've had an EMCS and a vaginal birth. They are nothing alike in terms of pain. You always get pain relief with a C Section. You don't always have that opportunity with a vaginal birth - I had a 6 hour labour with no pain relief - not by choice I might add. It was the most horrific pain I had ever experienced, and I honestly thought I was going to die. No amount of Hypnobirthing would have been useful, in fact I was like a wild animal and would have probably hit anyone trying to "calm me down".

What is needed, imo, is better care on labour wards, with more midwives, so that each woman is closely monitored, with strong pain relief being administered early on.

Also, I bet my hat, that if men gave birth, there would be better pain relief offered.

@Bluedeblue

Also, I bet my hat, that if men gave birth, there would be better pain relief offered.

It would all be ELCS done under general- wake up to the baby birthed, weighed, poked, prodded, bathed, fed and dressed for you.

@southernerer

One of my closest friends is a seniority midwife, we discussed this weekend my plans to train as a hypnobirthing teacher to have more flexible working and an added income. Her response was very firmly what a load of hippy nonsense, I explained it has helped myself and other friends cope with birth and manage without epidurals, she had been shocked at her own pain levels during birth and had requested an epidural at 4cm. To be clear im all for whatever pain relief you want but she openly admits she didn't cope well during her birth so feel she should be more open minded to things they could help esp as she's planning her second soon. Also when I mentioned having a third baby, and after an EMCS then ELCS, I'd like another ELCS she was very very pushy that I should have a VBAC. In other areas she's very open and not rigid in her thinking, for example her 3yr old still breastfeeds and bed shares every night with her but I just feel angry that women in her care must come across this very unsupportive midwife if their choices don't fit with her opinions!

I would bear in mind too (and I don’t mean this in a bitchy way I promise) that if you’re trying to position yourself as some kind of teacher you really ought to brush up on your writing skills, spelling and grammar. There are quite a few errors in your post, and it wouldn’t fill me with confidence if a teacher didn’t notice they’d used ‘seniority’ rather than ‘senior’, missed apostrophes and so forth. I’d wonder what other things your attention to detail led you to miss.

@superduster

'I think the biggest lie sold to women in childbirth is that you can be in control. 'Here are techniques to help you feel in control.' I actually think it would be much more helpful to say 'you are out of control of this process, here are techniques to help you roll with that.'

Yep agree with this. Anyone who has had a serious complication knows any pretence at being in control goes out the window very quickly in an emergency.

Agree entirely.

I went into birth happy to be birthing in a hospital, knowing I had qualified staff and interventions available if needed. I felt like it was a process I was part of but only one part of, the rest depended on many factors outside of my control such as baby, positioning, my anatomy and so forth.

I had an awful birth but I think that approach was really helpful. I had no illusions that I had an ounce of control other than to consent to or refuse checks and interventions.

It’s awful that women are told that they are in control during birth. It’s a physiological process happening to you and it’s absolutely brutal in so many ways. Stuff like hypnobirthing (which really is largely about breathing methods and mantras and affirmations) can be learned from YouTube, but people sell it at great cost because it preys on women’s anxiety and fear of the process by giving them the sense that they have a way of controlling it and shaping their labour.

What is needed, imo, is better care on labour wards, with more midwives, so that each woman is closely monitored, with strong pain relief being administered early on.

Totally.

I always thought 'hypnobirthing' was a fancy name slapped on well pre-established techniques (like positive thought, breathing, meditation etc) that we already knew help people get through births. Sounds like a money making thing to be honest. I mean we already knew that controlling your breathing and trying to stay calm and being positive etc helps with child birth, it's not a new thing. In reality though, there's little scientific research or evidence to suggest hypnobirthing makes any difference so why should your midwife friend buy in to it. I think you're being extremely unfair on your friend.

[edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

Stuff like hypnobirthing (which really is largely about breathing methods and mantras and affirmations) can be learned from YouTube, but people sell it at great cost because it preys on women’s anxiety and fear of the process by giving them the sense that they have a way of controlling it and shaping their labour.

It's total snake oil.

It's one thing to offer hypnobirthing as a supplementary thing to help women deal with the fear/anxiety/stress.

But still so many of the message out there (including in the OP) suggest that hypnobirthing gives you "control" or makes the experience more "positive".

Let's be honest about this. Labour is usually bloody brutal. For a minority of people it may be slightly less brutal than for others. But that's a lottery. It's not something which hypnosis or any other kind of mental support will make any difference to, other than by helping support with stress or giving you a bit more resilience. The idea that you can go without pain relief for longer as a result of it or that you are less likely to tear, all this sort of stuff, is total horseshit. And its dangerous horseshit because it leads some women to believe they can be in control of it, actually making them far less prepared and less resilient.