For feeling disappointed with my midwife friend

[southernerer]

One of my closest friends is a seniority midwife, we discussed this weekend my plans to train as a hypnobirthing teacher to have more flexible working and an added income. Her response was very firmly what a load of hippy nonsense, I explained it has helped myself and other friends cope with birth and manage without epidurals, she had been shocked at her own pain levels during birth and had requested an epidural at 4cm. To be clear im all for whatever pain relief you want but she openly admits she didn't cope well during her birth so feel she should be more open minded to things they could help esp as she's planning her second soon.
Also when I mentioned having a third baby, and after an EMCS then ELCS, I'd like another ELCS she was very very pushy that I should have a VBAC.
In other areas she's very open and not rigid in her thinking, for example her 3yr old still breastfeeds and bed shares every night with her but I just feel angry that women in her care must come across this very unsupportive midwife if their choices don't fit with her opinions!

Honestly OP, I would feel pretty mugged off if I paid hundreds of ££ for a hypnobirthing course from someone who had had elective C-sections. I have absolutely nothing against ECS at all, but hypnobirthing is very much associated with vaginal birth. I think you would have a lot of disgruntled customers on your hands.

@Zari29

Is this hypnobirthing teaching thing the new life coach?

I’m sure the op isn’t one of them, but yeah some see it as a way to prey on vulnerable women for easy cash.

I don't have children but in the rare event I got pregnant and wanted to learn 'hypnobirthing' from someone, I don't think I'd mind if the person had had a vaginal birth or not. The person has still (presumably) been on some sort of course and learned how to teach the technique.

If the person was too scared of the pain of a vaginal birth even with the supposedly amazing power of hypno, it would maybe seem like they didn't have much confidence in the technique though.

@thepeopleversuswork absolutely bang on.

TBH her attitude sums up most midwives I dealt with arroganance and uncaring. They seem to often think they know everything because they have 'read textbooks and statistics'

I did hynobirthing and didn't feel the need for any pain relief till 9cm. However that is me and my pain threshold. Despite doing hynobirthing I ended up with a traumatic delivery purely due to to the shocking standard of midwifery in this country.

Would I do hynobirthing again yes. But I am having a midwife in that room with me and they will examine me regularly regardless of what they think they know. A lot of hynobirthing seems to be against examinations (my midwives were also being their statistics and textbooks told them I wouldn't be delivering for a while) yet those lack of examinations meant for me that my son nearly died because of meconium and struggling to breath. I only got examined after I demanded it and told them they could examine me or find someone who would. I have been telling them I was further along for a long time and was being ignored. Equally I will 100% be having a home birth next time.

I know someone will pipe up about how they are a wonderful midwife and I am sure you are but many of your colleagues are not. I am glad you are wonderful but unless you can be at every birth your profession needs to up their game.

@thepeopleversuswork

I'm with your friend. I think its a scandal that women are steered away from perfectly safe pain relief during labour by a weird mixture of woo and misogynistic ideas about the perfect labour.

I don't know if you expressed to your friend that you believe hypnobirthing would have allowed her to avoid an epidural -- hopefully not - but the fact you've expressed it here suggests you buy into this. If I were here and I'd got a hint from the conversation that you think hypnobirthing or whatever would have allowed her to avoid having an epidural I'd have seen red.

Plus, as has been pointed out already, she's presumably been involved in numerous deliveries and realises that no amount of hypnobirthing can eliminate the need for pain relief.

I don't have a problem with hypnobirthing per se if it helps people have a more relaxed and positive mindset but I loathe the way women are bullied into thinking that pain relief is bad and if they were a better earth mother they wouldn't need it.

Excellent comment, on every level.

@DingleyDel

Haha. I must admit I fell for some of the hypnoborthing crap. Some of the advice in the original book is downright dangerous (such as avoiding induction after PROM, I found out the hard way). Sure the breathing techniques are great and reading the book chilled me out during the pregnancy but the truth is it’s all a big fat lie. When you get to a certain stage in a vaginal birth it fucking kills no matter how much you visualise and breath. It’s one of those things that I doubt anyone shows much interest in once they’ve given birth and realised the reality.

But that’s your own subjective experience. It didn’t ‘fucking kill’ for my second labour...it was difficult and intense at points, but manageable, and hugely eased by the relief of getting into the pool and birthing there. That’s not something I can claim credit for - no doubt I was very lucky not to have any complications. But I find it very unhelpful to be told that labour will be tortuously painful - just as unhelpful as saying all women can just ‘breathe’ their baby out.

There are so many other pains associated with giving birth (eg breastfeeding with cracked nipples) that I personally found infinitely worse than giving birth.

I’m frankly amazed at the fact your second labour didn’t hurt. Maybe because you’d been through it once before? Unless your first birth was a Caesar..

would view a positive birth as it going the way you envisioned

Well there's no way that a bit of deep breathing has any genuine effect on the lottery that is childbirth. Yes it helps keep you calm. But it really isn't possible to ensure things go the way you want. If you are selling that, it's dishonest. Very few women have a complication free first birth.

I have lots of friends who’ve tried hypnobirthing, but none of them to have with a csection because why would you? I can’t understand what help you think it’s been for an ELCS? And I don’t think you will be able to explain that well to others to sell your services either.

I explained it has helped myself and other friends cope with birth and manage without epidurals
Does hypnobirthing actually help you to cope without epidural?
It didn't for me. If your labour pains can be diminished by a mind over matter attitude, you probably didn't need hypnobirthing at all. Each labour is individual, the health of each mother and baby are individual. It's not all about coping, but what's necessary. Most of us could cope without one, we'd get through it but no one should suffer.
I had G&A, I wasn't allowed morphine. I had 3 days of no sleep and with a debilitating health condition and high blood pressure the epidural was fantastic. I had a rest, was the most comfortable I'd been since pre pregnancy and it helped to bring my blood pressure down. When your baby's stuck, there's no breathing it out. When you have a drip forcing your body into labour because its necessary for baby's safety, you don't feel "waves" because you've told yourself to.
I wanted to try everything prior to birth to make it as comfortable as possible. In the end modern medicine and a great medical team done that. It's good to have a knowledge of it but when people advocate it they become fixated on their knowing that its best for everyone. When it comes to labour you need to keep an open mind because they don't always go to plan.

Well put it this way@southernerer I would be listening to your fully trained friend over you any day of the week!

@timeisnotaline

I have lots of friends who’ve tried hypnobirthing, but none of them to have with a csection because why would you? I can’t understand what help you think it’s been for an ELCS? And I don’t think you will be able to explain that well to others to sell your services either.

I did. As it turned out, the drugs didn't work so I was very glad I could use hypnotherapy.

thetuesdaypringle do you really think women with a planned csection will pay 100s of pounds for hypnobirthing? Op, why did you do it for a planned cs?

@timeisnotaline

thetuesdaypringle do you really think women with a planned csection will pay 100s of pounds for hypnobirthing? Op, why did you do it for a planned cs?

I spent maybe £200 to learn it even though I knew I was having an elective c so yes I think other women may well so that too. And very glad I did. Anything you can do to improve the experience is worth it imo

@Newmum29

I’m frankly amazed at the fact your second labour didn’t hurt. Maybe because you’d been through it once before? Unless your first birth was a Caesar..

It was definitely painful, but it was manageable with focused breathing at home, and very far from the worst type of pain I’ve ever experienced. Speed also helped for me - 2 and a half hours from the first contraction to giving birth. There was barely time to give birth in the pool. I practically elbowed a student midwife out of the way and clambered it when it was only half full. I had G&A for birth number 1 when pushing and the relief from the pool was indescribably better.

But that’s my own experience. It should be just patently obvious that every woman and every birth will be different, and any kind of rigid, deterministic attitude as to how giving birth should he or will be probably isn’t helpful. At the back of your mind you should prepare yourself for all eventualities. Interventions can be unnecessary, yes, but they can be lifesaving.

But I have to say, I find some of the analogies in this thread completely counterproductive. Comparing childbirth (net gain) to the amputation of a limb (net loss)...I mean, they are literal polar opposites from a biological point of view, and psychologically.

I too throw my arms up at the growing lack of respect towards experts. That a short course can somehow mean a person is more qualified to speak on a subject than a fully trained and accredited professional with years of experience is lunacy. Suddenly everyone is an economist and a doctor and an immunologist thanks to the internet.

@Cocomarine

One quick Google gives me a 3 day course for those with no experience of birth education for £1350, proclaiming you could manage your own hours and earn £3K a month.

And the site owner actually uses the phrase “mum boss”.

Is it any wonder a qualified professional was unimpressed by your plans?

I said upthread, I’m a big fan.
My “hypnobirthing” teacher had her own devised course (it was the early days of popularity). She had delivered 3 of her own (2x vagina, 1x Emcs) and more importantly had 10 years experience as an NHS clinical psychologist, and was an experienced hypnotherapist.

What makes you think that you’ll be better able to support women and their childbirth choice with your 3 days training (is that your plan?) than her?

I’m all for hypnobirthing - but a pregnant woman should be careful what “Mum Boss” she chooses to pay as her teacher. Otherwise Mum Boss may be pushing Tropic on her in the same workshop 🙄

I started reading this thread and thought "I can see hypnobirthing becoming the newest MLM". You hit the nail on the head!

BH her attitude sums up most midwives I dealt with arroganance and uncaring. They seem to often think they know everything because they have 'read textbooks and statistics'

No, they know what they are talking about because they have actually delivered countless babies, you melt! Thye know a lot more than you do, and than OP does. YOU are the arrogant one, because you don';t get that.

I dont think anyone can say all midwives are great or all our arrogant know it all's, as with any professional you get a range and it's all dependant on the patients interpretation of how they prefer to be treated too I guess, some may prefer a stern tell it like it is midwife others may like a more softly softly approach. I know Ive encountered all sorts as had long stints in hospital with both my pregnancies due to complications.
And to the antagonistic posters at no point has anyone suggested a hypnobirthing teachers know more or should replace a midwife so stop trying to change the narrative

The fact that she told you what she believes doesn't mean it is the way she would react with patients. She is comfortable enough with you, as a friend, to tell you her views. She might be totally open minded in her profession.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with hypnotherapy for any type of birth because the key success to.it us to believe in it. If patients do, then they will be open to it and there will be done demand.

You need to assess what the demand is likely to be, and whether it's worth the investment. You don't have to advertise your own experience and jnly mention it if you face a si.ikat situation with a patient.

Dint make assumptions about your friend though, it's not fair when you don't know how she inducts herself at work.

Conducts not inducts!

I'm not hiding her for breastfeeding etc still I just used that as an example to show she's open to what are considered more modern ways of parenting.

breastfeeding is considered a modern way of parenting? Breastfeeding? And you think you are perfectly suited to impart your “wisdom” on soon to be mothers? Christ.

Thank you @vivainsomnia and very true re my friend, the hypnobirthing at this stage is just an idea for the future I'm not about to head up the church of hypnobirthing as preacher in chief

She is talking to you as a friend, not in her role as a midwife. She doesnt have to share your opinions or support your money making venture.

Many people feel that these sorts of paid for alternative services target the most vulnerable women, who are least able to assess which are quality and which are not. Paying for hypnobirthing is not cheap.

Imho its right up there with cranial osteopathy for babies and baby sleep consultants, unregulated and expensive services that often add little and are marketed to worried first time mums at high cost, often by "practitioners" with relative little training and no medical qualifications whatsoever.