Thread 28 Sunak : Lords, Ladies and Lame Ducks

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4835909-thread-27-sunak-the-ship-is-sinking-hold-your-nerve?page=1

To carry on from previous thread

Boris Johnson has still not given his WhatsApps to the Covid Inquiry, ten days after the High Court deadline passed.

An inquiry spokesman tells me they have not been given any indication to expect their imminent release.

<bows>

I was just idly wondering how many threads we would go through on GE night when we finally get one.

Thanks again for the new Fred.

Thanks for the thread.

What's the next step if the whatsapp messages aren't forthcoming? Is it contempt of court?

Thanks @DuncinToffee

Christ, can they not just send in the court bailiffs to get the bloody phone. He’s quite obviously deleted anything he wants to at this point he’s just having a pissing contest.

Thx Dunc for new thread and Pointy for excellent thread title!

Roll on by elections...

Thanks @DuncinToffee. I guess we’ll be busy tonight and tomorrow. Hopefully we’ll be spreading some joy.

Thank you Duncin.

Placemarking

Thanks!

Excited for the outcome of the byelections.

Thanks for the new thread.

Bet you’d be even more excited if you were having a by election, Piggy.

itsgettingweird · Today 15:51
pointythings · Today 08:47

It's a culture wars dog whistle. It helps nobody, it protects nobody. I think @AdamRyan should be in charge of policy on this issue - we need practical, compassionate, safe policies. No pandering to extremists on both sides.
Agree.

Working in education I can see why there needs to be some sort of policy. It was getting to a point half a class would be expecting different pronouns and names all the time and used as it a control way. And I believe that really minimises the experiences of kids who are genuinely struggling.

But to shut down the conversation at all is counter productive too. And ime some pupils questioning their identity aren't actually trans but have other issues going on,are seeking attention and/ or control and need the adults in their life (and sometimes the ones who listen are at school) to support them.

It's not an area that a black and white policy can be drawn up.

——————-

I hope you don’t mind me c&p’ing from the last thread @itsgettingweird. Your post sums up my concerns in the trans debate and there doesn’t seem to be any type of moderate conversation at the moment. Expectations at both ends are ridiculously high/unrealistic. I suspect any productive progress will be decried by both ends and at this point I suppose that’s how we know a balance has been achieved 🤷‍♀️

Thanks for the new thread, DuncinToffee

@Cornettoninja I've been called anti woman on trans threads so many times for not sitting at the 'acceptable' extreme, i.e. being fully GC. I don't bother now, the extremists are all as bad as each other. There's a middle ground to be had, but not until people start listening to each other.

I very much agree about the middle ground, @pointythings. I just can't reconcile the GC characterisation of transpeople with the gentle trans people I know who just want to be left to get on with their own lives totally inoffensively.

Me too @pointythings. the furore lobbed in your direction if you dare to disagree with any element of the GC side is something to behold.

I have no desire to be associated with either end of the extreme and really couldn’t give a shit if the self appointed gatekeepers of feminism want to shun me. They just want a fight so they can carry on.

It’s just a shame we don’t have a government strong enough to lead an actual moderate conversation. Maybe Starmar will manage it, although I have more confidence he will at least manage to create a space for it to happen led by others.

Agreed.

Pmk

@Kiwano I have skin in this game because one of my DC is trans (FTM). But I'm also quite active in support of the LGBT community and so I have met many trans people. I don't recognise the GC extremist presentation of them as sexual predators out to erase women. Not at all.

I do hope that under a new government there can be a sensible discussion on how we proceed, and that should include the architecture of public spaces as well as an acknowledgement that some people really do need single sex spaces and so these should be maintained - it should be 'in addition to', not 'instead of'.

So agree with this. I know a couple of trans people and they are great and I refuse to criticise them.

Couldn’t agree more. There’s no way I’d go anywhere near the feminist boards, they’re pernicious.

Hi again (only post very rarely). Good and interesting to see a 'middle ground' discussion on the trans issue, thank you.

My thoughts have been a) that the problem 'most' women have with the more forceful element is surely not with 'true' trans people but male predators and abusers who will use and abuse every loophole they can to get at us? Like you, I don't have any problem with the idea of anyone identifying as male or female, but I do have a problem with male rapists being in female prisons, for example; or any man getting a job in a women's refuge because they 'identify' as female. Or even performing in women's sport... I see the GC people as being against this risk, rather than true trans people?
As for children, I am of an age when young people messed about with gender identity and crushes all the time, under no pressure to conform, and settled down one way or the other. I am concerned that now it's become 'your identity' and will be set for life. This does deeply concern me. And there is no political will to challenge/debate all this, seemingly.

That said, and sorry to have contributed to the derail somewhat, I will NEVER vote for that pack of shite that is currently in WM. Looking forward to tomorrow!

What you have posted reflects roughly where I stand, @lifesabitchandthenyoudie. The trouble is that on the feminist boards people can be demonised merely for being trans, wholly irrespective of the fact that they have zero intention of using women's changing rooms, performing in women's sports, working in women's refuges etc. And as for the people who want to vote Tory because they "know what a woman is", I simply cannot understand the logic in feminist terms, given how little the Tories have done or intend to do for women in real terms.

@Kiwano yes they are a little ott on here! I thought I'd learn something from them but only how not to handle the debate! As for the tories, I fear logic has lost the argument there. But maybe not...
Fingers crossed for a good day tomorrow!

it should be 'in addition to', not 'instead of'.

This. So many changing facilities etc are now gender/sex neutral.

I agree with single sex spaces but also agree with anyone can be who they want.