Most 'trans' people are non binary - EU survey

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

https://tgeu.org/tgeu-publishes-trans-human-rights-realities-and-resilience-in-europe/

'65.5% of trans respondents identify as non-binary or gender diverse, marking this as the fastest-growing segment of the trans community (up from 51% in 2019)'

'The EU LGBTIQ Survey III report presents data from 30,627 trans people (trans women, trans men and non-binary and gender diverse people), which represent 30.6% of the total sample (99,972). This is a significant rise from 20,933 trans respondents in the previous LGBTI II Survey in 2019. The increase in trans respondents is especially notable considering that overall, there were almost 40,000 fewer respondents compared to the previous survey. '

I was surprised by this. Interested to see how 'non binary' evolves.

Fantastic. He of the dying swan/bad special effects dance tiktok video, innit. Amazing.

The thing is, they're sort of saying 'if I can't beat them, I'll join them'.

Which I can understand, sure.

"If you insist that women are people who are feminine, then I'll accept that and say 'in that case I'm not a woman'" vs "if you insist that women are people who are feminine, I'll argue that you are incorrect, and women are people who are female and no other criteria".

Sorry, they of the dying swan/bad special effects &c.

If all “gender” was “non-binary” then you could just as easily do away with the entire concept of gender and just have people with a sex and a personality. The word “woman” would (as it did and should) refer to an adult human female regardless of personality. That’s all. Why the insistence that personality must be presented as a “gender identity”?

if you truly believe gender is really personality why are you not all saying you are none binary in modern language ?

The difference of opinion is not understanding of one's own gender identity, but whether it is helpful to classify anyone into feminine and masculine gender identities.

I'm kind of there with you! I have a body - like the vast majority of people it is clearly and definitely one of the two sexes (male in this case). I also have whatever a personality is.

Originally quite often a bunch of ways in which me and my autistic brain try to 'act normal' but in my middle age turning more and more into 'I'm too autistic to put up with this shit, no thank you'

Well yes if we didn’t have genders things would be simpler !

You could say that people who reject a none binary are in a way accepting of a binary feminine identity - that’s certainly what some believe

@backformoreofthesame we don't have to have genders though, it's a concept that could be binned. And things are that simple for some of us! I rejected the idea of genders as a young teen when I realised what nonsense it was. I am me, I happen to be female which has some practical implications and lots of negative cultural and social implications that I fight to change.

I'm afraid I don't know what your last sentence means, could you rephrase "You could say that people who reject a none binary are in a way accepting of a binary feminine identity - that’s certainly what some believe"?

Because it’s silly genderist jargon founded in sexism and misogyny.

I don't believe we have genders, we have sexes

I believe that some people truly do have gender identity- and I begin to think it’s actually the default.

identity is to my way of thinking your internal self image and how you align that with others on society

So many women are implicitly accepting it, “boys will be boys” as they raise their kids , men in particular feel that masculinity is an important part of them.

Women who have thought hard about it ( usually because of abuse of some form ) with lots of self reflection recognise it for what it is and so reject it or none binary themselves

( I will write the caveat that I know ( think anyway ) that gender is a response to society so the charactertiacs of that changes with time, that it’s unmeasurable objectively and you can’t base laws around it before we get distracted )

People have all sorts of ideas about their own identity, but I can't think of any situations where it's helpful to classify that formally or where it should be the state's concern.

I think you can compare it to religion. People have a variety of opinions and some people have a strong sense of religious identity. They are protected from discrimination on the basis of their beliefs, but the state doesn't register people's religion.

In comparison sex is more like age. You have no control over it and it affects you regardless of whether you identify as being 15 or 50.

People can believe they have a gender identity, as long as that doesn't impact on me at all in any way. In the same way that they can believe in astrology or religion or any other belief system.

"So many women are implicitly accepting it, “boys will be boys” as they raise their kids , men in particular feel that masculinity is an important part of them.

Women who have thought hard about it ( usually because of abuse of some form ) with lots of self reflection recognise it for what it is and so reject it or none binary themselves"

I genuinely don't know where to start with this! A belief being popular doesn't make it objectively true, or a valuable belief system. People should be able to say that beliefs like "boys will be boys" are harmful to both men and women, and push back against them without being criticised for upsetting anyone who believes in that concept.

I don't think it needs a huge amount of thought or deep reflection or abuse(!) to recognise the nonsense and unfairness of systems of gender and to reject them. Women and girls often come to that conclusion very naturally for themselves when they identify a gender based unfairness and push against it.

When it comes to mental images of one’s self and what being a conscious being means - if lots of people think they have a gender identity- ie they have an image of self whereby they align with the gendered expectations based on their sec how can you say it’s not real? I stated explicitly that it wasn’t objectively measurable yet you state it’s not objective as a criticism of what I write ?

is any of this real? Do we exist ? Are you all figments of my mind ? Does the mind exist ?

if you can’t look around at the world around you and see gender conformity in action then you ain’t really looking. And the reason it persists is because people are not thinking about it at any depth

the belief may be wrong but that doesn’t mean it isn’t very real to the people who have it

It's real for them if they believe it. It will then of course affect how they act. I am glad that you agree that there is no reason to decide that people's beliefs about gender are objectively true.

"if you can’t look around at the world around you and see gender conformity in action then you ain’t really looking. And the reason it persists is because people are not thinking about it at any depth"

Who on earth has said they don't see any gender conformity? Of course many many people conform to gendered expectations at various times for various reasons. I sometimes conform myself, because I'm tired of fighting, or I just want a quiet life and not to stand out, face negative consequences etc etc.

Non-binary as an identity does nothing to challenge gender conformity - as already explained, it reinforces it totally. Non-binary can only exist if conformity is expected of everyone else.

No. You have misunderstood.

We don't think wonan is a gender identity. We think it's a physical sex.

Sure we could create a whole new name for "the half of humanity we used to call women and girls but now don't becsuse some sexist people decided woman and girl should mean the people of either sex who embrace the sexist gender concepts attached to the female sex" , and then fight to get the history of the female sex, the cultural identity of the female sex across different cultures and classes and times, and the laws and rights of the female sex all reassigned to the new nane, but why the fuck should we? We were here first. Genderists colonised us, not the other very round.

And even if we did, do you really think sexism follows the word woman and not the female body? Are you really that naive?

Do you think Feminism just got it wrong, and instead of fighting for women's rights, autonomy, safety and humanity all we gave ever needed to do is say "yeah but we aren't women so neerh" and all the sexism and misogyny and marginalisation and exploitation and abuse we face would have just gone poof away in a cloud of linguistics????

Wow, if only Feminists had realised all they needed to do was tell men "actually no I don't see myself like that" and they'd have gone "oh fair enough, here's equality then. We thought you liked the sexism"

I can't hear this spoken aloud because I'm not on X but the script suggests that it would make a wonderful sound track to one of those stop-motion Creature Comforts animations that Aardman did. I'm not sure what animals they both would be though.😁

Boston Marathon, I think, last year? This year, in April?

Can that statistic not be used as evidence that we need more gender neutral spaces as obviously NBs can't use either the Ladies or the Mens loo.

It would also give those poor transwomen a safe space to pee.

Exactly. And in order for some women to be able to "opt out" of the oppression of the female sex, there would have to be laws enacted specifically to cover this undefinable "non-binariness."

And my guess would be that in order to define it, we would first have to curtail some of women's (and probably men's) rights to get to the point where "non-binary" would make sense, would work in reality, day-to-day, and would hold up to a legal challenge.

So, that won't happen. Too much like hard work.

The easiest way to make this happen is to never define it and build a law around flimsy foundations, tack it onto some other law that vaguely resembles the one you want (force-teaming, anyone?), put a rubber stamp on it, walk away, and hope for the best. I'm sure there are a lot of activists who would be perfectly happy with that!

Except that, as @Keeptoiletssafe would tell us, the design of “gender neutral” toilets/changing rooms/etc must (for privacy etc) be the type that includes floor-to-ceiling walls and doors. And floor-to-ceiling walls and doors - in public spaces - are the least safe in terms of people collapsing and not being seen until it’s too late, women (and girls and boys) being pushed inside and raped and not being seen or heard, drug use, ease of camera installation etc, etc. Not to mention they’re harder to keep clean than cubicles with floor gaps.

So, in fact, we probably don’t want more “gender neutral” spaces, whatever the number of people identifying as NB might be.

That sounds right.

Yes but in addition to the usual male and female facilities.

Then special people could chose between the slightly less safe enclosed space or the space provided for people of their sex.

If the trans athletes are anything to go by, you'd need two groups: those running while wearing make up and those running without it. 😉

So most ‘trans’-categorised people are those who reject gendered stereotypes.

Goodness. That almost suggests there is a category problem going on. WHO KNEW?