NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

Is he allowed to comment? There are rules about commenting on SM in court.

From TT

to get info and put [IT expert] through embarrassment of admitting it was the sixth best way of dealing with the information on the phone. On a teams call with DU uploading info. Was JR who pressed on whether Du having lied was only explanation of result.

J [asks for a citation]

from herald
1:39pm
After a short break, Ms Cunningham is talking about NHS Fife and Dr Beth Upton's position on the meaning of biological sex.
The respondents say that it is wrong to say biological sex is determined by the congruence of chromosomes, gonads, and genitals at birth, but Ms Cunningham says "it is not wrong. It is the law, as authoritatively determined in Corbett v Corbett and Bellinger v Bellinger, as we have explained elsewhere in detail."
They are both landmark cases on the legal meaning of sex.
"They go on to say that chromosomes are not the defining characteristic of sex. That is true: chromosomes alone are not determinative when the matter is in doubt.
"But in the vast majority of cases, sex is simply biological sex, where chromosomes, gonads, and genitals are all in alignment. That is the straightforward case. Where they are not in alignment, the law requires a method of determining which of the two biological sexes an individual belongs to."
She adds: "But this case isn't about differences of sexual development in any event. So none of that is of any assistance to tribunal whatsoever. It's simply a distraction.
"And as I think I have already suggested, it may be a distraction which is part of the same enterprise of creating a confusion in the Tribunal's mind about something which is, in fact, really simple.
"The law about what sex means, biological sex means is very clear and straightforward and authoritatively established."

Popping to the loo.

On crutches.

PETE

NC couple of additional things to say by way of inclusion...

The point of Pete is he is legally indistinguishable from Dr Upton...

She's really driving home the point of Pete

Pete!!

Judge just catching up asking if transwoman appears in the act.

NC it doesn't.

How about 'Dr Pete Upton' as a compromise between Beth and Theodore?😁

Good! I for one am very pleased to hear this!

I may have misunderstood/misspoken, sorry. It could be commentary provided on a similar basis as that from those of us observing remotely and posting here.

Nobody else has ever raised their disquiet. It should now be abundantly clear to the tribunal why

You are going outside, You may be some time?😦
Hope you make it back without too much pain/difficulty Myrtle.

That's OK, we're just terrified someone will do the wrong thing and we'll lose all access!

Middle names "Manly Man" 😂

Spelt Manleigh Mann, of course..

NC Many profoundly weird things about this case

She's not wrong.

😂😂😂

from herald
1:46pm
Naomi Cunningham is talking about Pete.
He is a hypothetical example that has been used repeatedly by Sandie Peggie's legal team throughout the tribunal.
The purpose of introducing Pete is to strengthen the harassment argument. Her legal team argues that if Pete's presence in a changing room could be established as sexual in nature or amounting to sexual harassment, then the tribunal would have the burden of distinguishing Pete from Dr Beth Upton.
The argument is that if the conduct is deemed sexual in nature when Pete, who does not identify as a woman, is present, then simply identifying as a woman should not change the nature of the conduct.
Ms Cunningham says: "If Pete, without any other changes, without any changes to his presentation, where he lived his life, whatever it is to live as a woman or what he called himself, or the way he did his hair or how he dressed, without any changes of that nature.
"If Pete insisted that he was a woman, then he was as much a woman as Dr Upton. And that is inevitable for anybody who subscribes to the opposite belief to sex realism.
"Those who subscribe to gender identity belief have no definition of what a trans woman is, except a man who says he's a woman."

I’m back. Thanks for your patience.

This has been the weirdest What The Actual Fuck? Tribunal so far!

😂Smug

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51