NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Witnesses in the hearing so far with skeleton chronology:

Monday, 3 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Tuesday, 4 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Wedneday, 5 February 2025
Sandie Peggie
Maya Forstater
Darren Peggie (Sandie Peggie's husband)
Nicole Peggie (Sandie Peggie's daughter)

Thursday, 6 February 2025
a row about disclosure particularly over BMA documents
Sheila Bell (Sandie Peggie's mum)
Beth Upton

Friday, 7 February 2025
very late start, massive row over disclosure, agreed that Beth Upton would start giving evidence on Monday

Monday 10 February 2025
Beth Upton

Tuesday 11 February 2025
Beth Upton
collapse of public access

Wednesday 12 February 2025
Beth Upton

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

a break of many months

Wednesday 16 July 2025
Isla Bumba

Thursday 17 July 2025
Gillian Malone

Friday 18 July 2025
Elspeth Pitt
Louise Curran
the omnishambles ending provided by the statement from NHS Fife

Monday 21 July 2025
a late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Lottie Myles

Tuesday 22 July 2025
another late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Kate Searle

Wednesday 23 July 2025
another late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Lauren Harris
Kate Searle

Thursday 24 July 2025
Angela Glancy
during AG's testimony there was a row over NC's entitlement to use correct-sex pronouns
Ann Hamilton (scheduled but might change)

Friday 25 July 2025
Peter Donaldson
Jim Borwick
Maggie Currer

Monday 28 July 2025
a chaotic start with Claimant requesting new witnesses and provision of new documents
Fiona Wishart
Lindsey Nicoll

Tuesday 29 July 2025
Maggie Currer

This is a list of Abbreviations used by Tribunal Tweets and has been taken from their substack

Claimant, respondents, counsel, members of the court

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
Rs – first and second respondents
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for respondents
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members; CM Russell, L Brown

Witnesses/Frequently Referenced Personnel of NHS Fife

MF - Maya Forstater, CEO of Sex Matters
DP - Darren Peggie, Claimant's husband
NP - Nicole Peggie, Claimant's daughter
SB - Sheila Bell, Claimant's mother
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
IB – Isla Bumba, NHS Fife Equality and Diversity Lead Officer
KS - Kate Searle, A&E consultant
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up in SP investigation
VV – Vic Valentine, Equality Network

Abbreviations for frequently used terms (not exhaustive)

AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
CR - changing room
CX – complaint
DX - disciplinary procedure or process
FtP - fitness to practice
GC /SR: gender critical or sex realists. Belief that biological sex is important, immutable and different from gender identity
GI – Gender identity is a person's internal sense of their own gender, which may or may not align with their birth sex.
HI - hate incident
HR - Human Rights
IX - investigation
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule, policy, or practice that can put people at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employer's actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
TM – transman (person born female who claims a male gender identity)
TMAM - transmen are men
TW – Transwoman (person born male who claims a female gender identity)
TWAW - transwomen are women
OfS - Once for Scotland
EA - Equality Act 2010
PC - protected characteristic; 9 under EA
RA - risk assessment

Would it be possible for people to turn their attention to this post byfrom a previous thread:

I have a similar court case in England's side which aims to protect single-sex facilities for women. It is in need of support to cover legal fees and can be found by searching for Faye Russell-Caldicott on crowdjustice.com

"I have issued an employment tribunal complaint against NHS England for indirect discrimination on the basis of sex (women), religion (Islam), philosophical belief (gender critical) and disability (PTSD) for having a policy in place which effectively renders the supposed single-sex toilet, changing room and showering facilities as mixed-sex."

There's more information here: https://sex-matters.org/case-briefings/faye-russell-caldicott-v-nhs-england/

Thanks for continuing the thread @nauticant
Following with interest…

Just trying to keep up, that’s for thread 46 🙏

I'm pretty upset about those jokes. Clearly they're wrong. They really don't mean Peggie doesn't have a right to a SS CR though and they also don't mean she wouldn't give proper care to all patients whatever their background. She never had a complaint in 30 years. Jimmy Carr tells jokes like that and sells out venues.

It also looks like it was totally acceptable within that circle. I've long been told by friends who are NHS front line workers, including doctors and nurses, that a black and at times offensive sense of humour is what gets them through it. It's accepted that obviously the patient never hears it and the care itself is always paramount.

I'm upset by those jokes but I'm still more concerned that Upton would present himself to a female patient who requested a female doctor, thinks biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle. That's when it interferes in patient care and actual trustworthiness and that's really the crux.

Regarding having a dark sense of humour www.psychologistworld.com/cognitive/black-humor-linked-to-high-intelligence-study

Note to self: don't forget it starts at 9.30 in the morning.

@boiledbeetle replying to something you put on the last thread but it didn’t fit, re PJs. Bravissimo sleep bra is your friend. Love mine, makes PJs more comfortable and means I’m decent if I need to answer the door!

I love that the last word on the previous post was:

No.

PM

The so-called jokes are pretty vile, but it isn't that long ago that stuff like that would have aired without complaint on radio 4 if the 'comedian' had a sufficiently posh accent. Sad that Sandy forwarded them, but it does not remove her right to single-sex changing facilities. No woman should be forced to remove clothing in front of a man.

This

What a day.

These past couple of weeks have meant we are witness in real time to a whole bunch of people very publicly ruining their reputations and possibly their careers... all in inglorious technicolour.

Did any of the chat group comment on the 'jokes' ? Was that when the 🤣 was posted?

This isn’t “a dark sense of humour”. I have a dark sense of humour.

This is racism. Flagrant, unabashed, ugly racism.

Right everyone, this thread is to last till at least the morning. If I come back to find it's been filled earlier, I'll have a fit.

Those jokes were absolutely disgusting and very upsetting. And the ppl here defending these jokes need to take a good hard look at themselves. Disaster jokes are IN NO WAY a natural response to help people cope with disasters. If your family were affected by floods would you feel an inexplicable psychological need to make tasteless jokes about it? And I bet you those defending jokes about Pakistani flood victims would be (rightly) appalled by jokes about the girls who died at the Christian camp in the Texas floods.

PS I totally support SP’s right to single sex spaces. I believe she was treated appallingly by NHS Fife and she thoroughly deserves to win this case. I do not believe that her unfortunate taste in disgusting jokes makes her unfit to be a nurse or that she would treat patients poorly. I do think her jokes are racist and ghastly; It is entirely possible to condemn both her racist jokes and to condemn NHS Fife’s appalling treatment of her for wanting SSS.

I keep thinking about NC saying both sides are likely to appeal depending on the outcome, They want this case to go to EAT to become case law.

Maya had to do this, but what also happened is they had to redo her ET.

Can anyone confirm SP’s employment status?

I know she was suspended then the suspension was lifted and she had to change her shifts to avoid DU - is that her current job status? She’s currently working and employed by NHS Fife?

Because I must say that today’s events at the tribunal risk her ongoing medical career tbh. I think she should be subject to an investigation based on the comments she shared. I think the best outcome for her is to get a large enough payoff from the NHS that she doesn’t need to work again, because between the NHS and the nursing council, they probably finally have evidence to properly sanction her.

@mariedegournay (I think that's how you spell it!) - I just wanted to say how much I liked your post about your aunt's neighbour checking on people in the aftermath of a disaster and praying for them. A beautiful example of expression of humanity.

I didn't get a chance to reply to the question below before the thread closed.

I am not sure why you are trying to defend the use of the p word @extravirginolive

However, my answer is that I don't know if technically an Indian man using the p word is racist, but it is disgustingly bigoted.

I wouldn't want to be mates with him. I would also question whether he should be working in HR as you said he had used it about employees when you worked with him.

Anyone else notice this, from TT

LN Is very rare to meet drs in the CR.

Hope Naomi picks that up.

I remember the space shuttle and one horrible joke circulating afterwards. Everyone laughed, including me. It was a shock reaction to a witty joke. I suspect that nurses and doctors see so much death and human frailty that they normally try to laugh rather than cry. Black humour becomes a coping mechanism.

I’m not going to try and defend what Sandie shared, I think they’re awful.

That doesn’t change the fact that she’s entitled to a single sex space in her workplace. And further entitled to proper treatment by her employer when she raises this issue.

She is not wrong about the issues pertinent to the tribunal, just because she may hold unpleasant views about other things.

I think that was posted by LN when SP (rightly) said people might think she was racist.