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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/07/2025 16:04

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

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24
Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 19:26

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 19:20

@FloridaCat Racist working class people say it, ffs.
My mother still says it. I don't believe she's at all racist. It's just a word from a time that has stuck and hasn't given it any thought. Shouldn't intent also be considered here? People aren't always aware that certain words are later considered offensive. Or vice versa.

I've never particularly understood the difference between 'coloured person' or 'person of colour'. I'm sure someone will come along to explain why the former is offensive but the latter isn't.

I sadly think this is all from a time when it was acceptable to say these sorts of things and even sadder as sexist as this is going to sound (i dont mean it to be) but these jokes are working men’s jokes and coming from a woman they sound harsher even worse they were in a group chat with other women and the fact not one of them said maybe this isn’t the right place for that sort of humour is quite telling of the kind of group this was.

cigarsmokingwoman · 28/07/2025 19:27

we shouldn't get sidetracked by whether or not Sandie is racist / homophobic / trump supporting / whatever

It has no relevance to the actual argument she is making - that women's spaces should be women only.

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 19:29

Jellycatspyjamas · 28/07/2025 19:25

I don’t think for a second anyone involved in that group chat was unaware how offensive the language used was. These are professionally qualified people with a code of ethics, not my aged father.

And I wasn't talking about them. I was responding to the comment that only racist working class people say it.

I also remember a time when black was considered offensive and it was polite to use coloured.

Times change and not everyone keeps up, but that doesn't mean they are inherently racist.

Conversely homophobes can now use the word queer without anyone batting an eyelid.
Intent and context matter

ForAllWomen · 28/07/2025 19:29

Today just goes to show - whatever happens better to have NC in your corner. She was sharp & pulled out relevant points to highlight the narrative to the judge.

Yes Sandie shared racist jokes & on balance likely said racist things re burqa etc.

What she got LN to admit is that she didn’t report her to the NMC. LN had a duty to do so. LN couldn’t because she didn’t have clean hands - she was culpable in her own way.

How JR thought that just these ‘jokes’ would be received as evidence without NC and her team going through everything - words fail me.

JR underestimates NC at every turn. If JR hadn’t filibustered on Friday and been sharper about these witnesses she’d have wrapped up for Fife. But the last thing the Court will now hear are an eviseration of Maggie Currens nonsense about DSD and then rebuttal witnesses.

What little value was expected from this witness hasn’t been realised. Sandy shared racism jokes and LN laughed at them, holidayed with her and was as equally complicit in poor practice.

Not sure the tribunal will assign any of the evidence much weight given other actual evidence provided re the matters in issue.

DrBlackbird · 28/07/2025 19:30

PMK

myplace · 28/07/2025 19:31

I think we can recognise it’s racist language and deplore its use, while recognising that many people using it are not ill intentioned.

It creates a toxic environment- there was a case like this about a cricket club, wasn’t there?

But there are still huge pockets of the country where it’s normal language and not intended malevolently. The Chinese takeaway word is alive and well in the North East and you’d struggle to get a lot of people to recognise it as an issue.

ETA typo

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 19:32

I just can't believe the irrelevant shit JR tried to dig up.
I quite believe the 4hr before the first disaster jokes start circulating.
I heard the my first 9/11 joke before the second plane hit, and the guy who said it had no idea it was a big plane that hit it. He thought it was a small private plane.

Did anyone else pick up that Sandie usually got changed in the toilet cubicle?

Was that before or after Upton started. TBH lots of women don't like communal changing areas anyway.

myplace · 28/07/2025 19:32

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 19:29

And I wasn't talking about them. I was responding to the comment that only racist working class people say it.

I also remember a time when black was considered offensive and it was polite to use coloured.

Times change and not everyone keeps up, but that doesn't mean they are inherently racist.

Conversely homophobes can now use the word queer without anyone batting an eyelid.
Intent and context matter

Totally.

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 19:33

GirlsInGreen · 28/07/2025 19:26

Its been quite churning today, agree that the whole culture sounds toxic & unpleasant.

Also agree that Sandie's right to SS CR dont hinge on pleasant/unpleasant views.

Does anyone think the Nurse (im quite confused which of the two) who seems to have broken patient confidentiality could face professional censure?

What destruction on reputations this has all unleashed. I imagine an exodus of staff from the A&E dept, the staff moral & atmosphere must be dire for those watching/hearing of the shennanigans in court.

I agree.

I can’t ever see a future for SP at NHS Fife, sorry. There’s absolutely no way this group of people can ever work together, she would never be treated fairly by them. I get the impression she would like to maintain her career, but after today I’m not sure that is possible.

Even when you take her out of the equation, the morale on the remaining team must be crazy. They must be left not knowing who to trust, being scared to report concerns, lacking faith in management etc.

Frankly, I’m surprised no one has publicly posted what the NHS Fife A&E waiting times/outcomes are. Or what they have been over the past 2 years, and how all of this has impacted their performance to date.

I think it’s a proper nightmare to navigate, that might only be solved by shuffling people around and starting afresh with a new team.

anyolddinosaur · 28/07/2025 19:33

@Jitrenka You are wrong. When the word now considered a slur was first used it was simply a description, not an insult. That came later and most of us then stopped using it. But it's quite right to say that an older person referring to the corner shop that way often had no prejudice or intent to discriminate. If someone else slagged off the owners then people might well leap to their defence. Even when it began to be used as an insult you'd hear people say but ... are lovely people.

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 19:33

myplace · 28/07/2025 19:31

I think we can recognise it’s racist language and deplore its use, while recognising that many people using it are not ill intentioned.

It creates a toxic environment- there was a case like this about a cricket club, wasn’t there?

But there are still huge pockets of the country where it’s normal language and not intended malevolently. The Chinese takeaway word is alive and well in the North East and you’d struggle to get a lot of people to recognise it as an issue.

ETA typo

Edited

Same in the North West. And if you asked them if they had a problem with Chinese people they'd look at you like you're mad.

AAT65 · 28/07/2025 19:35

HereticMyrtleLion · 28/07/2025 19:10

And JR has a plane at 3pm on Thursday so can't stay beyond noonish.

If she is flying Loganair from Dundee Airport the flight is at 4pm. The airport is less than 3 miles from Endeavour House so a very quick taxi transfer time. The last direct train is 4:10pm and takes over 6 hours so I can understand using air travel if she really has to be back in London on Thursday.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 28/07/2025 19:36

The jokes are racist, mocking a mass tragedy, and also really shit jokes.

Anyone arguing that people are using this as humour to get over their genuine grief can't be serious.

Charabanc · 28/07/2025 19:37

nauticant · 28/07/2025 18:56

Right everyone, this thread is to last till at least the morning. If I come back to find it's been filled earlier, I'll have a fit.

Yes mum.

WarriorN · 28/07/2025 19:38

cigarsmokingwoman · 28/07/2025 19:27

we shouldn't get sidetracked by whether or not Sandie is racist / homophobic / trump supporting / whatever

It has no relevance to the actual argument she is making - that women's spaces should be women only.

100%

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 28/07/2025 19:38

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 19:23

Sure. I do think the NHS/nursing council have solid evidence to legitimately reprimand SP with this group chat though. Given how public this employment tribunal has been, large volumes of the public will want to see SP reprimanded unfortunately. I don’t personally want to see that, but I do see this issue as too controversial to ignore, especially given the NHS has been trying to get rid of her for a while.

If they reprimand SP they’ll have to reprimand them all, including LN who quite clearly was acting out some sort of vendetta against SP today.
The whole of NHS Fife is rotten to the core and needs a root and branch clear out.

I am surprised by the number of people who seem shocked by the allegations of SP’s racism, we knew right from the beginning that she supported Trump, so it’s not a massive leap, but that doesn’t mean that she hasn’t been treated appallingly, was obviously horribly bullied by her colleagues, who have behaved disgracefully in trying to change evidence and cover things up, and to avoid having their own hideous behaviour exposed. However unacceptable we find her views, she has as much right to fair and just treatment as anyone else, this is a matter of law, not personality.

I probably wouldn’t choose SP as a friend, but I will stand be her asserting her right to SSS until the cows come home.

SionnachRuadh · 28/07/2025 19:40

Intent and context matter

This is important. I'm part Romani. I don't think Jimmy Carr is - I think his background is Irish Traveller, which is a distinct group though the two are often confused. I'll admit that his Holocaust joke made me cringe rather than laugh.

There are a whole bunch of internet policewomen (it's always women) going around saying that you can't say gypsy, it's equivalent to the n-word. I would guess that none of these people are Roma themselves. If they were they'd know that there are serious slurs out there, and the community has much bigger problems to worry about than Jimmy Carr.

There are a lot of working class white Brits out there who might be uncouth and use outdated language and even share an offensive meme sometimes, but who aren't hateful and wouldn't think of treating people poorly because of their ethnicity. Those are people you can have a conversation with and say, you know, we don't say that any more.

The way you can tell serious racists is that they never bloody shut up about it.

I've know a few people in recent years who have become unironic antisemites. They've gone out blazing with righteous indigation, aiming to prove that their hero Jeremy Corbyn is a nice man incapable of prejudice, and three or four months later they're tweeting manically about Zionist control of the UK government.

These are not working class people. They're graduates with nice middle class jobs, who know the right vocabulary to keep them just the right side of being cancelled. They scrub up well, which is why useless regime mouthpieces like James O'Brien or Lewis Goodall aren't thinking of them when they hold forth about racism.

DuchessofReality · 28/07/2025 19:40

Extremely unedifying I agree.

it has helped NHS Fife in the court of public opinion ‘look what sort of a person she actually was’.

But I struggle to see exactly what JR will make of it in terms of relevance.

I do think that there is probably a correlation in terms of whether people who are racist/homophobic are also transphobic, because if you dislike people on the basis of difference you probably dislike all differences. So Fife might have been trying to show that she probably was transphobic. However, as courts have previously said, it is not transphobic to believe men can’t become women, nor to believe single sex spaces are important. And we have zero evidence that SP ever said anything remotely unpleasant to DU other than ‘you don’t belong in a female changing room’. Even on his evidence. And zero evidence that she did anything that correlated with what Fife say she was suspended for, other than objecting to a man in a female changing room.

Obviously IF Fife had suspended her on the basis of these messages then they would be extremely relevant. But they didn’t.

As deplorable as these messages are, they are evidence that she thinks unpleasant things, not that she has ever treated anyone differently on the basis of any characteristic. And Fife have tried very hard to find evidence of that and found nothing.

DeanElderberry · 28/07/2025 19:40

SP didn't write that crap herself did she? I assumed it arrived in her inbox and she forwarded it. She should have deleted it and had a word with whoever she got it from, but the whole nasty episode speaks of a bad work culture around electronic communication, and around respect for people. NHSF seem to have spared no effort in propping up one sacred caste while not making its staff aware that the need for respect applies to everyone. Including women.

Jellycatspyjamas · 28/07/2025 19:41

myplace · 28/07/2025 19:31

I think we can recognise it’s racist language and deplore its use, while recognising that many people using it are not ill intentioned.

It creates a toxic environment- there was a case like this about a cricket club, wasn’t there?

But there are still huge pockets of the country where it’s normal language and not intended malevolently. The Chinese takeaway word is alive and well in the North East and you’d struggle to get a lot of people to recognise it as an issue.

ETA typo

Edited

I think it’s a bit of a stretch to think that SP and her colleagues weren’t aware of the impact of the jokes and the language used. It’s not uncommon for workplace culture to shift to where unacceptable behaviour becomes tolerated and accepted but let’s not pretend they didn’t know.

ruffler45 · 28/07/2025 19:45

Wonder how many of the higher/other management were on the chat group surely in 2600 pages there must be more...

Are NC and crew looking for other names other than SP and LN that are part of this debacle?

How many knew about it but did nothing or just went along with it.

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 19:47

SionnachRuadh · 28/07/2025 19:40

Intent and context matter

This is important. I'm part Romani. I don't think Jimmy Carr is - I think his background is Irish Traveller, which is a distinct group though the two are often confused. I'll admit that his Holocaust joke made me cringe rather than laugh.

There are a whole bunch of internet policewomen (it's always women) going around saying that you can't say gypsy, it's equivalent to the n-word. I would guess that none of these people are Roma themselves. If they were they'd know that there are serious slurs out there, and the community has much bigger problems to worry about than Jimmy Carr.

There are a lot of working class white Brits out there who might be uncouth and use outdated language and even share an offensive meme sometimes, but who aren't hateful and wouldn't think of treating people poorly because of their ethnicity. Those are people you can have a conversation with and say, you know, we don't say that any more.

The way you can tell serious racists is that they never bloody shut up about it.

I've know a few people in recent years who have become unironic antisemites. They've gone out blazing with righteous indigation, aiming to prove that their hero Jeremy Corbyn is a nice man incapable of prejudice, and three or four months later they're tweeting manically about Zionist control of the UK government.

These are not working class people. They're graduates with nice middle class jobs, who know the right vocabulary to keep them just the right side of being cancelled. They scrub up well, which is why useless regime mouthpieces like James O'Brien or Lewis Goodall aren't thinking of them when they hold forth about racism.

love this post!!! ❤️

borntobequiet · 28/07/2025 19:47

”The public” is a very broad church, and the court of public opinion is likely to find that SP was unwise to share such jokes - many will profoundly disapprove of them - but that it bears little relevance to her right to change her clothes in a space without a man in it and to be fairly treated by her employer.

Mayyouleave · 28/07/2025 19:48

Sandie Peggie's daughters partner has posted on twitter:

As Nicole Peggie's girlfriend, I can confirm Sandie and her family have been welcoming, supportive and accepting of our 4 year relationship.

If this was already been said please feel free to give me a RTFT, so many threads it's a whirlwind!

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 19:48

ForAllWomen · 28/07/2025 19:29

Today just goes to show - whatever happens better to have NC in your corner. She was sharp & pulled out relevant points to highlight the narrative to the judge.

Yes Sandie shared racist jokes & on balance likely said racist things re burqa etc.

What she got LN to admit is that she didn’t report her to the NMC. LN had a duty to do so. LN couldn’t because she didn’t have clean hands - she was culpable in her own way.

How JR thought that just these ‘jokes’ would be received as evidence without NC and her team going through everything - words fail me.

JR underestimates NC at every turn. If JR hadn’t filibustered on Friday and been sharper about these witnesses she’d have wrapped up for Fife. But the last thing the Court will now hear are an eviseration of Maggie Currens nonsense about DSD and then rebuttal witnesses.

What little value was expected from this witness hasn’t been realised. Sandy shared racism jokes and LN laughed at them, holidayed with her and was as equally complicit in poor practice.

Not sure the tribunal will assign any of the evidence much weight given other actual evidence provided re the matters in issue.

Sorry but I think JR played a strong hand today.

She knows NHS Fife are a lost cause here. What she did today, was simply decimate public opinion on SP - and it worked.

JR knows that the evidence today is tangential as the judge said so this morning. Therefore JR knew today’s witnesses/evidence were of little legal relevance. A good solicitor may have heard the judge pushing for tight timings and deadlines, so refuse to ask these witnesses to give unnecessary evidence as to not waste court time.

However JR decided to wasted that time and put these witnesses on, to destroy NC and SP as a cheap parting shot. It has impacted the claimant’s momentum and the court of public opinion, even if it had little legal relevance.

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