NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

But do we have the right to say things that cross what other people determine is a line in what we regard as a private conversation? Which of us hasn't at some time hasn't said something that some people would now find offensive? I have to say I find it really awful that people have drawn a straight line between things that happened in a private chat and how SP might be at work.

We did when it was Met police officers were making incredibly offensive comments about women.

And while I’m sure I’ve said things in a private chat the others might not like, I’m absolutely sure I’ve never said anything racist - it’s not hard to avoid. All of the people on that chat who either said something racist or who failed to address the racism should be reconsidering their careers. Dark humour is one thing, overt racism is something quite different.

Musing on todays carnage..

I hope it makes people think about their social media use. An ex colleague has recently been sacked because of their posts on Gaza. They've also lost their redundancy (a substantial amount) because of this. Can't go into more details obviously. Incredibly foolish.

And just to add even Bernard Manning deserved single sex spaces. The fact he was Bernard Manning is irrelevant.

And NHSFife must be the worst employers in the Universe, they really don't care who they throw under the bus, because of one entitled man.

An unedifying display.

After a roller coaster of a day, I was reflecting on what a path of destruction has been wrought, simply because one man wanted everyone to pretend that he was a woman and only one person was prepared to say No. Whilst I have little sympathy for most of the witnesses, just think how many reputations and careers have been damaged or destroyed, how many friendships have been broken, how much distress has been caused to the witnesses. Not to mention the vast amounts of time and money.
It should never have come to this. Nobody comes out of this looking good.
#Sad Times - and I actually say that with sincerity.

BBC Scotland News coverage tonight focused very much on the two Fife witnesses and their evidence but got Wishart’s name wrong twice so shows the level of attention they pay to the whole thing.

also I believe that the tribunal can uphold SP complaints BUT make a deduction to any compensation awarded if they feel she contributed to the issues at hand. I think on balance, this will be what the tribunal does, because it sets them on middle ground for either side appealing

Someone in my extended family said they were going to the shop run by the Pakistani family, except they shortened it to the p word.

I objected, saying it's racist and she responded that even he calls it that.

He has internalised racism to the extent that he uses the word to others, saying he runs the p shop. But also, he has customers who might not use his shop if he doesn't "go along" with the "joke".

It doesn't make it right, or less racist. It doesn't respect the shopkeeper or his community.

It's similar to when we ignore the man staring at our breasts, or being called "girls", or being called "guys", even when it's just women present, or being passed over for a job because we're women.

We don't complain every time, or even at all for some of us. We get on with it. Because otherwise that's all we would do all day sometimes.

It's still sexist, and every time it happens to me, whether it's a man, woman or my own mother, I feel less about the person saying it.

If they don't hear all the witnesses tomorrow because it runs over (as it always seems to), what then?

It will go into Wednesday and Thursday. These days are currently set for submissions by the Claimant and Respondent to be made orally in person then submitted in writing.

They have agreed they may take submissions of law or fact verbally and the other submissions in writing. I would have to check.

The judge wants to get this completed quickly.

And JR has a plane at 3pm on Thursday so can't stay beyond noonish.

I think the judge would like to say “tough luck” but in reality, they have been reminded of the possibility of an appeal. So I think they are trying to be reasonable.

They mentioned a few possibilities earlier such as written submissions or reconvening in a few months. Personally I think it’s likely the judge will just push away their other obligations for the sake of getting everything done now, hence why they set out a strict running order for tomorrow.

SP is sadly racist - as is LN and everyone else on that chat thread. If someone says something offensive in a chat then the brave thing to do is to point out it's offensive. If you can't face the argument then the easy option is to leave the chat. Every nurse on that chat needs to be investigated.

They all still have exactly the same rights as non-racists. Doesn't matter if you're an innocent saint or a woman in prison convicted of serious violent offences*.

*except voting rights in prison I think

This!

I wonder what Fife’s game is bringing this up. Could it be they know they are fucked so in bringing out evidence about her character it will mitigate her injury to feelings?

Others laughed at and joined in with the jokes too. I would argue that the whole culture is toxic; that's not to let off SP, but I do think workplace culture comes from the top, and the top (who get paid the big bucks, after all) have to take responsibility for it.
I agree with those who say that, whatever SP's actions and possibly views (they are not necessarily the same thing when it comes to sharing jokes online), she has a right to a single-sex space at work.
She also has a right to due process, as does everyone, including murderers and paedophiles. This is crucial and must not be taken away or undermined.

Others laughed at and joined in with the jokes too. I would argue that the whole culture is toxic; that's not to let off SP, but I do think workplace culture comes from the top, and the top (who get paid the big bucks, after all) have to take responsibility for it.
I agree with those who say that, whatever SP's actions and possibly views (they are not necessarily the same thing when it comes to sharing jokes online), she has a right to a single-sex space at work.
She also has a right to due process, as does everyone, including murderers and paedophiles. This is crucial and must not be taken away or undermined.

Quite disappointed that the evidence today shows that Sandy likely holds some very racist views and certainly isn't someone I'd be likely to go on holiday with multiple times over several years.

However, it doesn't alter the fact that she is fully entitled to a single sex changing room or that the investigation was a total shambles. I think you either accept all women are entitled to single sex spaces, including women you don't particularly like, or none are.

Equally, if you think trans women should be allowed in women's spaces, that includes all of them, including the likes of Isla Bryson and Katie Dolotowski.

I do agree with this. SP’s messages were horrible. But all of them in that chat were complicit.

To a certain extent, I can see why LN was twitching to get involved in this tribunal. I think if I had a colleague being publicly adored for taking my employer to an employment tribunal, meanwhile I had all these damning messages from said colleague…I would think that colleague was rich (in a hypocritical sense).

I can see how LN was feeling jealous and it is clear she just wanted to expose SP. However I personally would have reported the messages as and when they were sent, not saving up 7 years worth of blackmail to use at a convenient time! As a result LN took herself down when she tried to take SP down.

@FloridaCat Racist working class people say it, ffs.
My mother still says it. I don't believe she's at all racist. It's just a word from a time that has stuck and hasn't given it any thought. Shouldn't intent also be considered here? People aren't always aware that certain words are later considered offensive. Or vice versa.

I've never particularly understood the difference between 'coloured person' or 'person of colour'. I'm sure someone will come along to explain why the former is offensive but the latter isn't.

I sadly think this is the exact point that JR wanted to get to today.. people fighting over whether SP is racist and her rights as a woman being questioned as a result of it. It kinda sucks but i guess well done JR 🙈

I'm just catching up after a weekend away feministing, and feel the need to re-post Andrea Dworkin's quote:

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are."

Fife didnt think Sandie would be able to afford good lawyers at an employment tribunal, Upton would be supported by the BMA and was a different social class and probably could, Plus they wanted to virtue signal. So they went for the soft target, it would be unkind to ask how that is working out for them.

Having carried out the most appallingly biased process they can not defend in court they are into damage limitation by any means possible. The fact that this has blown up in their face seems to still escape them. Their lawyers are giving them dreadful advice, capitulate and give Sandie anything she wants would have been a a better tactic.

Sure. I do think the NHS/nursing council have solid evidence to legitimately reprimand SP with this group chat though. Given how public this employment tribunal has been, large volumes of the public will want to see SP reprimanded unfortunately. I don’t personally want to see that, but I do see this issue as too controversial to ignore, especially given the NHS has been trying to get rid of her for a while.

My mum used to say it - she was best friends with the people in the corner shop too, used to make pies for them and they used to give her curry. She just never understood why it was wrong.
It's a word I never ever use and used to tell mum off for because I'm a different generation I suppose.
The only person I ever heard use it in a work situation was a woman I worked with of Pakistani descent who said P* lads were the worst. I remember howling laughing at her saying 'My God if I said that I'd be sacked" (rightly).

I don’t think for a second anyone involved in that group chat was unaware how offensive the language used was. These are professionally qualified people with a code of ethics, not my aged father.

I've never particularly understood the difference between 'coloured person' or 'person of colour'.

What makes a word offensive is the history of how it has been used. it’s offensive to call people coloured as the history of the term was that it was used by racist people as a racist slur. Same with the “P” word.

Its been quite churning today, agree that the whole culture sounds toxic & unpleasant.

Also agree that Sandie's right to SS CR dont hinge on pleasant/unpleasant views.

Does anyone think the Nurse (im quite confused which of the two) who seems to have broken patient confidentiality could face professional censure?

What destruction on reputations this has all unleashed. I imagine an exodus of staff from the A&E dept, the staff moral & atmosphere must be dire for those watching/hearing of the shennanigans in court.